Peter_S
Peter_S
Hi!
I am pretty set to invest into a 120 camera later this year. Now, it should have a reliable RF and be small/compact. Can somebody enlighten me which of the post-war Ikontas were the smallest & lightest (or were differences minor?), preferably of the Tessar f3.5 or better f2.8 lens series. 6x4.5 is OK.
Also looked at the Fujifilm 645. How does that compare to the Super Ikontas in size?
Thanks,
Peter
I am pretty set to invest into a 120 camera later this year. Now, it should have a reliable RF and be small/compact. Can somebody enlighten me which of the post-war Ikontas were the smallest & lightest (or were differences minor?), preferably of the Tessar f3.5 or better f2.8 lens series. 6x4.5 is OK.
Also looked at the Fujifilm 645. How does that compare to the Super Ikontas in size?
Thanks,
Peter
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P C Headland
Well-known
The Fujis are all quite a bit bigger than the older 6x6 folders.
On the Super Ikonta front, the Super Ikonta III is probably the smallest. These come with the f3.5 Tessar or Novar - don't dismiss the latter, it is still quite good, and somewhat cheaper. Do read some of the threads here about film spacing - it is not so much a defect as a product of modern, thinner films/backing paper. You can easily work around this. If you want an f2.8 lens, you'll need to go with the older type bodies with the sliding prism rangefinder. These are quite a bit heaver, but are well made.
If you are after a faster Tessar (f2.8), you might want to look at the Certo Six. You do need to make sure the RF is good - the RF mirror often degrades, but it isn't that hard to fix. The camera is (IMHO) better made than the Super Ikonta, with a better unit-focus lens and a more handy 40.5mm filter thread. The lens standard is very rigid, and incorporates parallax correction. The viewfinder is not quite as good, and the focus lever is not to everyone's taste.
The Mamiya Six folders, especially those with the later lenses (like the Zuiko) are worth a look too. Very rigid, with the film plane moving to focus while the lens is fixed. Good viewfinders, and a nice little flag that drops into the viewfinder after you've taken a shot.
A rarer sight in the west is the Super Fujica-6 folder. Lighter in weight than the other cameras mentioned, but it seems rigid enough, with a good lens and an excellent viewfinder.
My favourite 6x6 folder though remains the Iskra. The best viewfinder I've come across in a folder, with an excellent lens. Their weak spot is the film advance mechanism (just like on the Agfa Super Isolette), so get assurances from the seller that it is in proper working order. If I were to keep one folder, this would be it.
Hope this helps.
On the Super Ikonta front, the Super Ikonta III is probably the smallest. These come with the f3.5 Tessar or Novar - don't dismiss the latter, it is still quite good, and somewhat cheaper. Do read some of the threads here about film spacing - it is not so much a defect as a product of modern, thinner films/backing paper. You can easily work around this. If you want an f2.8 lens, you'll need to go with the older type bodies with the sliding prism rangefinder. These are quite a bit heaver, but are well made.
If you are after a faster Tessar (f2.8), you might want to look at the Certo Six. You do need to make sure the RF is good - the RF mirror often degrades, but it isn't that hard to fix. The camera is (IMHO) better made than the Super Ikonta, with a better unit-focus lens and a more handy 40.5mm filter thread. The lens standard is very rigid, and incorporates parallax correction. The viewfinder is not quite as good, and the focus lever is not to everyone's taste.
The Mamiya Six folders, especially those with the later lenses (like the Zuiko) are worth a look too. Very rigid, with the film plane moving to focus while the lens is fixed. Good viewfinders, and a nice little flag that drops into the viewfinder after you've taken a shot.
A rarer sight in the west is the Super Fujica-6 folder. Lighter in weight than the other cameras mentioned, but it seems rigid enough, with a good lens and an excellent viewfinder.
My favourite 6x6 folder though remains the Iskra. The best viewfinder I've come across in a folder, with an excellent lens. Their weak spot is the film advance mechanism (just like on the Agfa Super Isolette), so get assurances from the seller that it is in proper working order. If I were to keep one folder, this would be it.
Hope this helps.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Don't disregard uncoupled rangefinders either. The Mess Ikonta 524/16 is lighter than the Super Ikonta III, was made with the same lens and shutter options, and does not have its finicky transport mechanism but a red-window transport (with double exposure prevention none the less) - i.e. it is optically equivalent and considerably more reliable, with only moderately less comfortable handling, at a fraction of the price.
In terms of camera size/film area, it is hard to beat the Bessa RF/Bessa II - the latter however are fetching collectors prices these days. Welta made some very tiny rangefinder folders, too.
In terms of camera size/film area, it is hard to beat the Bessa RF/Bessa II - the latter however are fetching collectors prices these days. Welta made some very tiny rangefinder folders, too.
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Brian Legge
Veteran
And if you can make due without a rangefinder entirely, consider the Zenobia. You can probably find one in great condition for 60-70$ Wonder sharp little lens on these cameras.
oftheherd
Veteran
Welta also made some great folders, both RF and non-RF. You should be able to find lots of information on all folders by perusing the threads in the 120 RF Folders area. I don't have any 120 RF folders except for a Mamiya which I need to make springs for. However, I do use Weltas in 120 and 35mm, as well as Fuji folders.
PMCC
Late adopter.
For very small money you can get various Japanese "semi" 120 roll film folders, i.e., 6x4.5 format. Often with front-cell focus lenses, they nevertheless can be very capable yet compact picture takers. The Zenobia with four element Neo-Hesper lens and Compur-type shutter comes to mind. Other models, such as the Konica Semi-Pearl, evolved from front-cell focus triplets with VF only to unit-focus four element Hexars with uncoupled or coupled RFs as part of the Pearl I, II and III series.
rumbliegeos
Well-known
In making your choice among the various folders keep in mind that some models have the shutter release on the left side and some on the right, if that makes any difference to you. The Zenobia, for example, has a shutter release on the left side.
Peter_S
Peter_S
Wow, thanks to all of you for the replies, that greatly helps, I appreciate it!
One more question: Any recommandations for a small folder with a 135 35mm equiv. lens (so, I guess in MF ca 50mm?)...any of the Ikontas? Most seem to be 80 or 105 (when 6x9).
Cheers,
Peter
One more question: Any recommandations for a small folder with a 135 35mm equiv. lens (so, I guess in MF ca 50mm?)...any of the Ikontas? Most seem to be 80 or 105 (when 6x9).
Cheers,
Peter
ZeissFan
Veteran
In 6x6, you also have the option of the various Agfa Isolette folders -- some with rangefinders and some without.
The Isolette III is similar to the Zeiss Ikon Mess Ikonta (524/16) in that both were offered with triplets or four-element lenses in either Pronto(r) or Compur shutters and with uncoupled rangefinders.
The later Agfa cameras, of course, seem to suffer from the same issue: cement-like grease and plastic bellows that develop pinholes in the corners.
In 6x4.5, Zeiss Ikon had both regular Ikontas with Novars (triplets) or Tessars (four elements) in either Pronto(r) or Compur shutters. Both Ikonta and Super Ikonta have left-hand shutter releases.
The late-model Ikonta and Super Ikonta based on the smaller Ikonta frame and not the prewar 530/16 use a coated f/3.5 Tessar. I think the Super Ikonta BX was the last of these to use an f/2.8 Tessar.
Some feel that the Tessar design was pushed too far at f/2.8 for an 80mm lens, and there probably is some validity to that.
The knock against Voigtlander camera is that the lens/shutter assembly yoke is prone to damage. I think the yoke is OK, but I think the rivet point is a weak point.
While the premium lens for a Zeiss Ikon medium format camera was a Tessar (and never a Planar), Voigtlander had a very nice selection of lenses, including a Skopar and a Heliar.
The Isolette III is similar to the Zeiss Ikon Mess Ikonta (524/16) in that both were offered with triplets or four-element lenses in either Pronto(r) or Compur shutters and with uncoupled rangefinders.
The later Agfa cameras, of course, seem to suffer from the same issue: cement-like grease and plastic bellows that develop pinholes in the corners.
In 6x4.5, Zeiss Ikon had both regular Ikontas with Novars (triplets) or Tessars (four elements) in either Pronto(r) or Compur shutters. Both Ikonta and Super Ikonta have left-hand shutter releases.
The late-model Ikonta and Super Ikonta based on the smaller Ikonta frame and not the prewar 530/16 use a coated f/3.5 Tessar. I think the Super Ikonta BX was the last of these to use an f/2.8 Tessar.
Some feel that the Tessar design was pushed too far at f/2.8 for an 80mm lens, and there probably is some validity to that.
The knock against Voigtlander camera is that the lens/shutter assembly yoke is prone to damage. I think the yoke is OK, but I think the rivet point is a weak point.
While the premium lens for a Zeiss Ikon medium format camera was a Tessar (and never a Planar), Voigtlander had a very nice selection of lenses, including a Skopar and a Heliar.
ZeissFan
Veteran
What is 135 35mm?
Peter_S
Peter_S
Hi!
Thanks for the additional information. With 135 35mm I meant if there are any MF folder with focal lengths that would correspond to 35mm in 135 film.
Thanks for the additional information. With 135 35mm I meant if there are any MF folder with focal lengths that would correspond to 35mm in 135 film.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Strictly speaking there are none. But the technically speaking collapsing rather than folding Makinas might fit the bill. The only one I'd recommend is the Plaubel Makina 67W - 6x7, expensive and relatively (80's) modern. As far as I know, the only 6x9 folding rangefinder (and indeed the only medium format folder with interchangeable lenses) with an optional wide was the Plaubel Makina II and III, with the 7.3cm Orthar. That lens however dates back to the twenties, is no great performer and can only be used with the ground glass back or zone focusing - the rangefinder only couples with normal lenses. Apart from these two, only baby press cameras (e.g. 6x9 Graphic and Technika) could be fit with wides and are foldable of sorts (many will not close with a bulky modern wide installed) - but they are in quite another weight and bulk class.
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Peter_S
Peter_S
Cheers, Sevo! I was afraid so. The Plaubel looks like it may fit the bill somewhat, as does the new GF670W: but I am not sure whether I want to spend much money on something I will use rarely and that is a tad to large for the few occassions I have in mind. Hm. Might have to go with 80mm and adapt a bit.
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Platinum RF
Well-known
super Ikonta B 532/16 with coated 80mm/2.8 is a very fine performer, I have many good closed up f2.8 photos they are good and sharp.
elmer3.5
Well-known
532/16 80mm f2.8
532/16 80mm f2.8
Hi, i´m very impressed with such a camera, nice colour rendition, quite sharp even at f2.8.
Coated tessar 80mm quite flare resistant.
Personally chose this f2.8 because it´s half stop faster.
Also, as a folder i find it very packable, use it in a lomo bag with two puches, one for a 35mm RF and the other for the ikonta.
Bye!
PD: One of my first shots, some parallax issue here.
532/16 80mm f2.8
Hi, i´m very impressed with such a camera, nice colour rendition, quite sharp even at f2.8.
Coated tessar 80mm quite flare resistant.
Personally chose this f2.8 because it´s half stop faster.
Also, as a folder i find it very packable, use it in a lomo bag with two puches, one for a 35mm RF and the other for the ikonta.
Bye!
PD: One of my first shots, some parallax issue here.
Attachments
RedLion
Come to the Faire
Super Ikonta 533 / 16
Super Ikonta 533 / 16
Just tried out my newly aquired 6x6 folder - a Zeiss super ikonta 533/16
The selenium exposure meter still works and is accurate!
My Gossen digital hand-held light meter, on the other hand is a mixed bag. After doing lots of comparision readings against the Ikonta and my 5Dmkii (both in the field and against an 18% gray card), I've concluded that while the incident light meter is accurate, the reflected meter is over-estimating the light by 1 EV.
Joe
Super Ikonta 533 / 16
Just tried out my newly aquired 6x6 folder - a Zeiss super ikonta 533/16
The selenium exposure meter still works and is accurate!
My Gossen digital hand-held light meter, on the other hand is a mixed bag. After doing lots of comparision readings against the Ikonta and my 5Dmkii (both in the field and against an 18% gray card), I've concluded that while the incident light meter is accurate, the reflected meter is over-estimating the light by 1 EV.
Joe
Peter_S
Peter_S
Cheers!
One more question: I assume none of the mentioned folder can be folded with a (yellow/orange) filter on the lens - is that correct?
One more question: I assume none of the mentioned folder can be folded with a (yellow/orange) filter on the lens - is that correct?
pschauss
Well-known
I found Zeiss Ikon 32mm slip-on filter which is thin enough that I can leave it in place when I fold my Super Ikonta 532/16. For my Iskra and my Moskva 2, a slip-on filter for a Meopta Flexaret is a press fit inside of the lens ring. The camera can be closed with the filter in place. I also found a 33mm screw-in filter which works for both of these cameras. I have not yet found a filter thin enough to allow me to close my Super Ikonta A (6x4.5) with the filter in place.
Of course, I still have to remove the lens hood when I close these cameras.
Of course, I still have to remove the lens hood when I close these cameras.
Scrambler
Well-known
Semi-wide folding MF rangefinder
Semi-wide folding MF rangefinder
I have an Ensign Auto-Range 220 which has a 75mm lens and will adapt to either 645 or 660 layout. In the square format, and based on diagonals, the 75mm equals a 135 format 38mm equivalent. Of course, this is meaningless because you would never compose a photo on the diagonal. Nonetheless, the "normal" lens is usually defined by the image circle of the negative: which is 84mm for the 6x6 and 43mm for 135 (and 75mm for 6x4.5).
I suspect there would be other dual-format folders which use the normal lens of the smaller format as well.
The Auto-Range 220 can be found (at some expense) with a 2.8mm Tessar, and it uses unit focussing rather than Zeiss's front-cell arrangement in the various Ikontas. Plus it has a simple mechanism for frame counting that adapts to either format.
Ensigns are not top-shelf products, but the feature set in the Auto-Range 220 is very impressive, particularly for inexpensive cameras (I've bought two and have not spent over US$60 on either).
Semi-wide folding MF rangefinder
I have an Ensign Auto-Range 220 which has a 75mm lens and will adapt to either 645 or 660 layout. In the square format, and based on diagonals, the 75mm equals a 135 format 38mm equivalent. Of course, this is meaningless because you would never compose a photo on the diagonal. Nonetheless, the "normal" lens is usually defined by the image circle of the negative: which is 84mm for the 6x6 and 43mm for 135 (and 75mm for 6x4.5).
I suspect there would be other dual-format folders which use the normal lens of the smaller format as well.
The Auto-Range 220 can be found (at some expense) with a 2.8mm Tessar, and it uses unit focussing rather than Zeiss's front-cell arrangement in the various Ikontas. Plus it has a simple mechanism for frame counting that adapts to either format.
Ensigns are not top-shelf products, but the feature set in the Auto-Range 220 is very impressive, particularly for inexpensive cameras (I've bought two and have not spent over US$60 on either).
RichL
Well-known
My recomendation is either the Mess Ikonta (non coupled rangefinder) or the Ikonta III (coupled rangefinder) Either will fit in a coat pocket quite nicely (or the back pocket of a pair of loose fitting jeans 
Filter can remain on with cover closed.
I have both cameras and though there is no real reason for doing so, the Mess is the one I normally use.
Filter can remain on with cover closed. I have both cameras and though there is no real reason for doing so, the Mess is the one I normally use.