Zenit (KMZ) and Leica Joint Production

Hmmm, would 500 digital Zenits hit sales of the digital Leicas? I have my doubts, brands are important to a lot of people.

And we don't know the details, prices paid by KMZ and so on. Then there's those collectors who will buy one and wrap it in cling film unused (I hope they take the battery out first)...

Regards, David

PS Another factor is all those people using an Industar on their digital Leica; although it would make more sense to use a Summicron on a FED or Zorki but who am I to criticise?
 
xayraa33 said:
I would price the lens it comes with to about 500 to 600 euros, generous enough for rarity when a 7 Artisan 50mm f1.1 in M mount goes for around 400 USD , a lens of about on par in quality with the Russian offering in my guess-timation.

So it it still would be a 3500 to 4500 euro body.

BTW, the 73 Zenit E also came with a lens, the fabulous 58mm f2 Helios 44-2 if you splurged and not got the 50mm f3.5 Industar 50 lens that was more popular in places with an even ridiculously higher duty and tax on imported photo gear than the UK, places like France of the 1970s.
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A 35/1 is not a 50/1.1, just like a 35/1.4 is not a 50/1.4; also do not unsee that, the wider a lens goes the harder it will be to make it faster, per the law of diminishing return. As sarcastic I'm intended to be toward this "joint production", I'd say this being hunk of a lens even larger than the Zeiss ZM 35/1.4 (as the way it should be), looks like substantial engineering. And unlike the 7-artisan 50/1.1, it has no known formula to take reference from. It's a challenge accepted (by whom, though?). Even if it's soft wide open (it will be), there simply is no other like it in the M realm. Be realistic: Russian or not, you simply don't get a 35/1 anywhere else, unless you're Stanley Kubrick. Give it the credit where it's due.

The true price of the Zenit M body: Leica used to price the M-E and the Typ 262 a sensible bit more than the going price of the M9 and M240 back then, so the former being new models with factory warranty could compete with the used. Similar here: if the M240 is going for like 2000 euros, then this would be like around 2500, minus the Red Dot tax. This would make selling it alone hardly profitable, so they will stick to the kit idea.

Again, this camera doesn't look like a "cheap Russian copy". It's just a rebadged M240, created in a way similar to Leica rebadging Panasonic cameras. I do believe the thing is made mostly in Wetzlar as well. Give Leica its credit where it's due, if you please.
 
Archlich said:
A 35/1 is not a 50/1.1, just like a 35/1.4 is not a 50/1.4. As sarcastic I'm intended to be toward this "joint production", I'd say this being hunk of a lens even larger than the Zeiss ZM 35/1.4 (as the way it should be), looks like substantial engineering. And unlike the 7-artisan 50/1.1, it has no known formula to take reference from. It's a challenge accepted (by whom, though?). Even if it's soft wide open (it will be), there simply is no other like it in the M realm. Be realistic: Russian or not, for 600 euros you don't get a 35/1 anywhere else. Give it the credit where it's due.

The true price of the Zenit M body: Leica used to price the M-E and the Typ 262 a sensible bit more than the going price of the M9 and M240 back then, so the former being new models with factory warranty could compete with the used. Similar here: if the M240 is going for like 2000 euros, then this would be like around 2500, minus the Red Dot tax. This would make selling it alone hardly profitable, so they will stick to the kit idea.

Again, this doesn't look like a cheap Russian copy. It's just a rebadged M240, created in a way similar to Leica rebadging Panasonic cameras. I do believe the thing is made mostly in Wetzlar as well. Give Leica its credit where it's due, if you please.
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I never said a 35mm f 1.2 is the same construction as a 50mm f 1.1 lens, I am comparing it price wise to an other budget brand fast lens to get at the price of the body in a round about way.
And being the owner of many FSU and Russian made lenses, that is all they are, comparable to Chinese brand lenses.. they certainly are not Leica made lenses or Nikkor made lenses or Canon made lenses, they are not in that league.

We don't know if the guts of this Zenit M camera are 100% Leica or 65 % Leica or 0 % Leica, anymore than claiming a Kiev 4AM camera is 100% a Contax II camera, we can only speculate from afar.

Other than being a low production number curio, maybe good for camera collectors, I say this Zenit M is priced too high and not following in the footsteps of its high volume shoddily made namesake of the past.
 
xayraa33 said:
I never said a 35mm f 1.2 is the same construction as a 50mm f 1.1 lens, I am comparing it price wise to an other budget brand fast lens to get at the price of the body in a round about way.
And being the owner of many FSU and Russian made lenses, that is all they are, comparable to Chinese brand lenses.. they certainly are not Leica made lenses or Nikkor made lenses or Canon made lenses, they are not in that league.

We don't know if the guts of this Zenit M camera are 100% Leica or 65 % Leica or 0 % Leica, anymore than claiming a Kiev AM camera is 100% a Contax II camera, we can only speculate from afar.

Other than being a low production number curio, maybe good for camera collectors, I say this Zenit M is priced too high and not following in the footsteps of its high volume shoddily made namesake of the past.
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I assume it's common sense that the Russian camera industry, with close to zero experience putting together even a film rangefinder with TTL metering, lack the fundamental capability to build a (highly sophisticated, digital) M240 all by themselves? It's not like you could just reverse engineer it and "adjust and fit" like in the old mechanical days of the Contax II...they'll have to build a full-fledged, Leica-aided factory just for that purpose. If that was the case we'd surely had seen it announced proudly in the news. Did we? In reality the KMZ today is but a shell of its former self. Even the days of it building the plastic Zenit cameras are gone now (the last ones were made in 2005).

The most technologically feasible, economically viable, and commercially sensible thing for them (and Leica) to do was to rebadge an aged Leica body and since it won't be "shoddily made" in that case, charge a quasi-Leica price. I believe they're fully aware what they're doing, since it's all quite understandable this way.

The big question is who this is intended for. The Russian oligarchs already had their genuine Leica custom built, so I assume it will take some first hand insight into contemporary Russian consumer culture to get an idea of the answer.
 
Archlich said:
I assume it's common sense that the Russian camera industry, with close to zero experience putting together even a film rangefinder with TTL metering, lack the fundamental capability to build a (highly sophisticated, digital) M240 all by themselves? It's not like you could just reverse engineer it easily like in the old mechanical days of the Contax II...

The most technologically feasible, economically viable, and commercially sensible thing for them to do was to rebadge an aged Leica body and since it won't be "shoddily made" in that case, charge a quasi-Leica price. It's all quite understandable.

The big question is who this is intended for. The Russian oligarchs already had their Leica custom built, so I assume it will take some first hand insight into contemporary Russian consumer culture to get an idea of the answer.
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It is still speculation to assume that this Zenit M is 100 % Leica guts or any lesser percentage Leica guts. They could have had the licenced permission to use the Leica design and Leica proprietary patents and had the electronics and some of the mechanical parts made in China for all we know and final assembly was done at KMZ in Russia.

As Ken Wheeler said once, " Russians are very good at cutting corners in the production of anything" and the guy has claimed to have lived in Russia for a time.

That KW statement makes sense as to on how we ended up with the Kiev 4AM from the well made and pricey Zeiss Contax II camera.

The small production numbers of this camera ensures a market for it to collectors and maybe the high price reflects that, my question is why did they call it a "Zenit " when the "Zorki" name would have been more appropriate for an RF style/type camera ?
 
xayraa33 said:
4k to 5k euros in price is not exactly the $ 69.99 of the Zenit E of 1973
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it would be $400 inflation adjusted, but anyways, Zenit is not the same, the camera is made by Leica, Russia is not the same and the market is not the same, so why the price should be?
 
Cutting corners in the old USSR is what we in the west call improving efficiency and, of course, profits.

I think I'll wait until I've read all the reviews, especially the last ones to appear and then would like to handle the thing. I reckon Leica have been very clever and KMZ will do well out of it.

Regards, David

PS And, with a bit of luck the prices of old Zenits will rise on its back and I'll make a profit on my old ones, perhaps at Christmas...
 
DanskDynamit said:
it would be $400 inflation adjusted, but anyways, Zenit is not the same, the camera is made by Leica, Russia is not the same and the market is not the same, so why the price should be?
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The camera is made by KMZ and marked as such.

The whole premise of a low production camera tells us it is not meant as a general consumer level camera on par with the Japanese cameras such the Sony A7 series or the new slew of FF mirrorless cameras recently announced and maybe that is why the Zenit M is priced as such.. that KMZ figures that there are people willing to pay that to own such a rarity and conversation piece.

The Zenit M body could be as good or bad as a new 800 dollar Sony A7 body in its ability photographic wise but it would not reflect that in its selling price.

All because it is being sold on a different premise based on nostalgia of a brand name, connections to Leica (to what degree we do not know ) FF and an M mount and an optical RF that is not found on any competitor so far other than Leica.
 
Archlich said:
The big question is who this is intended for. The Russian oligarchs already had their genuine Leica custom built, so I assume it will take some first hand insight into contemporary Russian consumer culture to get an idea of the answer.
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In your conversation all of your forgot what current politics in the Russia now. ;) They want to show to the World what they capable to do everything. This camera can be government "order" (for all Russian manufacture) to develop a product what can bit any "West" product. Those can enplane why they make a small amount, just for report and get support from the government budged
 
Deklari said:
In your conversation all of your forgot what current politics in the Russia now. ;)
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Not at all. See above:
This

Sputnik_asm.jpg


comes to mind :D

Deklari said:
They want to show to the World what they capable to do everything.
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Sure, why not? They are, very probably ;)

Deklari said:
This camera can be government "order" (for all Russian manufacture) to develop a product what can bit any "West" product. Those can enplane why they make a small amount, just for report and get support from the government budged
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*can*, yes, but... see above ;)
 
from russian news: "Cooperation Zenith and Leica - a unique alliance of many years of experience in manufacturing optics and modern technologies in Russia and Germany. With this project, we are talking for the first time about the release of the well-known all over the world domestic Zenit brand for a new segment of the photographic equipment market," (translate in the Google)
 
https://zenit.camera/

Specs are out. Aside from exterior dimensions, every bit's exactly the same as the M240, even down to the weight (680 grams, no a single gram more or less) and battery capacity (1800 mah).

The lens is 9 elements in 8 groups. No diagram, but it weighs a whopping 740 grams.

Deklari said:
In your conversation all of your forgot what current politics in the Russua now. ;) They want to show to the World what they capable to do everything. This camera can be government "order" (for all Russian manufacture) to develop a product what can bit any "West" product. Those can enplane why they make a small amount, just for report and get support from the government budged
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So nationalism it is. A new business for Leica: the Chinese maybe very likely be their next customer...
 
Deklari said:
I just want to say, what in Russian history, what they did not always have a "logical" seance for other. :)
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Hence organisations like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_German–Soviet_Friendship

It's a pity that the Germans dissolved this precious organisation. -- It would have helped them a lot the last nearly 3 decades if they would have kept tabs having such an ERASMUS-like programme.

Now, Dr. Kaufmann appears to re-vitalise it, camera-wise at least ;)
 
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