ZI Review from Tom Abrahamsson

[SolaresLarrave]

There's a big incentive to buy a brand new M7 in the US: the Passport Warranty.

And, before I forget, thanks, Huck, for posting Tom's review! 🙂

 

[sgy1962]

Yes, a USA warranty -- 3 or 5 years depending on the model -- does beat a 2 year international warranty. But the ZI only comes with one year warranty, which makes the two year international relatively more reasonable in comparison.

(I'm a Leica pimp today).

 

[sgy1962]

And you can still find new Leica RF bodies w/ USA far below MSP. You just got to look. Today, Ebay has an MP 0.85 and M6 LHSA millenium 0.72, both w/ USA, and each for $2795. Although I will agree that finding new M7 w/ USA is more difficult, it is not uncommon if you look. At the end of last summer, for example, Saber's Camera in California liquidated their Leica stock ("because it did not sell") and sold out a bunch of M7s w/ USA for $2200. The point I'm trying to make is that new Leica bodies are available below MSP is you do some looking.

And I've always maintained that a Leica is not expensive, when measured over its entire useful life (I'm one of those folks who believe that film will be aroung for a long time).

Tomorrow I'll pimp the ZI, which sounds like an awsome deal.

 

[ch1]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

I'm sure the agreement between Cosina and Zeiss precludes either party from moving into the other's territory. Cosina/Voigtlander will remain the supplier of 'budget' rangefinders, Zeiss will have domain over the mid-level/prestige models and probably gets dibs on digital.

Yes, and the Zeiss/Cosina p-ship now provides an opportunity for photogs to use the ZI as their "main" camera with a Bessa R2a/R3a as the "backup".

A very nice kit that combined is still priced considerably less than a M7.

Even a dedicated Nikonian like me could be tempted by this kind of combo. 😀

 

[aizan]

my hexar rf needs a buddy, and the zi with a 35mm biogon look real nice.

 

[Huck Finn]

Would you say that the ZI viewfinder is comparable to the M7's?

Better. Longer effective base length than M7 .72 or.58, larger eyepiece with better eye relief, at least as bright, if not brighter. M7 .85 has longer effective base length than ZI but no 28 mm frame lines.

 

[sgy1962]

Better. Longer effective base length than M7 .72 or.58, larger eyepiece with better eye relief, at least as bright, if not brighter. M7 .58 has longer effective base length than ZI but no 28 mm frame lines.

The eye relief sounds fantastic, and being an eyeglass wearer I would love to sample one. That is always what impressed me about the Nikon F3HP and the Leica R8 and R9 -- great eye relief.

Now, the longer rangefinder base means that the little focusing patch snaps together with more authority, correct?

But is that not a bit of a red herring, for those folks that use a Leica 0.58 with only a wide angle lens, given the wider depth of feild of wide angles?

 

[sgy1962]

I meant "longer" depth of field.

 

[summilux]

http://elekm.net/zeiss_ikon/

 

[Huck Finn]

Now, the longer rangefinder base means that the little focusing patch snaps together with more authority, correct?

But is that not a bit of a red herring, for those folks that use a Leica 0.58 with only a wide angle lens, given the wider depth of feild of wide angles?

But isn't that the point? The .58 magnification with its 41 mm effective base length is only a blessing if you use it exclusively with wide angle lenses. If you also want to use a 75/1.4 or a 90/2, or even in some circumstances a 90/2.8, you have potential problems with the M7 .58. In other words, the M7 requires a trade-off to get the same eye relief you can get from the ZI viewfinder without the same compromises.

 

[Huck Finn]

Interesting. It sounds like the ZI is a good buy, if one is in the need, or one fancies the eye relief.

I have to disagree with Huck Finn on the pricing point, however. Grey Market M7s sell for about $2550 on Ebay from HK (I checked today and one was for $2580 and one for $2530). So, it sounds like an M7 would be about a $1200 upcharge over a ZI. Given the established quality of the M7, that may be reasonable for some. In other words, the cost of a new M7 w/ international warranty will equal the cost of two new ZIs.

Yes, but can you find an M7 at those prices anywhere other than eBay or at fire sales? The new pricing policy at Leica makes it clear that it is only a matter of time before these last remnants of lower prices are gone & its either the used market or $3500 . . . $3800 . . . $4000 . . . Going, going, . . .

 

[Huck Finn]

And I've always maintained that a Leica is not expensive, when measured over its entire useful life (I'm one of those folks who believe that film will be aroung for a long time).

You're absolutely right. A Leica M-series camera is built like a tank. Built to the same standard as a Nikon F-series cameras. These are bodies built to pro standards, ready for the most abuse you can throw at them. If that's what the user needs, that's absolutely what s/he should get. And for anyone who wants the joy of owning such a precison built piece of equipment, go for it!

On the other hand, Nikon recognized 40 years ago that there are amateur users who would like the same features as the ones pros had on their cameras - or most of the features - but didn't need a camera built to the same standard because either they wouldn't put it to the same kind of use or didn't require quite the same level of precision. These are enthusiasts who still seek the fine art of photography in their spare time that pros make a living at.

IMHO, the Zeiss Ikon is the camera that Leica should have built. It fills the same niche that Nikon filled for decades with the N8008/F801, N/F90, F100. As good as these cameras were, they weren't an F4, F5, or F6. But they did everything that any amateur could want, they were well built, & they were embraced by many pros for a variety of reasons. Leica has eschewed this opportunity. Seeing their potential cusomers buy on the used market did nothing for their corporate balance sheet.

The Zeiss Ikon & the Hexar RF before it mean that the consumer doesn't have to settle for the choice of Leica or the short base line of a Bessa. It's nice to have greater choices.

 

[Huck Finn]

Now, the longer rangefinder base means that the little focusing patch snaps together with more authority, correct?

But is that not a bit of a red herring, for those folks that use a Leica 0.58 with only a wide angle lens, given the wider depth of feild of wide angles?

You might also consider the fact that even for wide angle lenses, focus accuracy becomes critical at close distances. DOF for a 35 mm lens at f/2 & 0.7 m, for example, is only 2 inches. And that is calculated at "acceptable unsharpness" for an 8 x 10 enlargement. The DOF would be even smaller for greater enlargements.

 

[sgy1962]

Yes, but can you find an M7 at those prices anywhere other than eBay or at fire sales? The new pricing policy at Leica makes it clear that it is only a matter of time before these last remnants of lower prices are gone & its either the used market or $3500 . . . $3800 . . . $4000 . . . Going, going, . . .

No, from Hong Kong it is still in the $2550 range. And there are several reputable dealers. Now, you don't get a USA waaranty, but a 2 year International one, but the point is that you still can get new for far less then your claiming.

 

[sgy1962]

But isn't that the point? The .58 magnification with its 41 mm effective base length is only a blessing if you use it exclusively with wide angle lenses. If you also want to use a 75/1.4 or a 90/2, or even in some circumstances a 90/2.8, you have potential problems with the M7 .58. In other words, the M7 requires a trade-off to get the same eye relief you can get from the ZI viewfinder without the same compromises.

A valid point, but many rangefinder folks use a 50mm or 35mm almost exclusively, and the 0.58 is fine with these lenses. Even the 90/2.8 is fine on the 0.58.

Its only the really fast lenses wide open that might be a problem. But if you use those lenses you probably have a 0.72 or 0.8x.

Plus, all the rangefinder folks I know pretty much dedicatte one body to one lens, and only use a couple different focal lenghts.

But the ZI does sound versatile. Too bad Zeiss does not make any fast lenses to use with it 😀

 

[Huck Finn]

No, from Hong Kong it is still in the $2550 range. And there are several reputable dealers. Now, you don't get a USA waaranty, but a 2 year International one, but the point is that you still can get new for far less then your claiming.

I'm glad to hear that! 🙂 And I accept your correction.

For the benefit of anyone looking to buy, would you care to post any dealers? Dr. Yao, I assume. Any others? A number of us were frustrated last year with the lack or fesponse of ACC to our e-mails. I gave up.

Huck

 

[sgy1962]

You're absolutely right. A Leica M-series camera is built like a tank. Built to the same standard as a Nikon F-series cameras. These are bodies built to pro standards, ready for the most abuse you can throw at them. If that's what the user needs, that's absolutely what s/he should get. And for anyone who wants the joy of owning such a precison built piece of equipment, go for it!

On the other hand, Nikon recognized 40 years ago that there are amateur users who would like the same features as the ones pros had on their cameras - or most of the features - but didn't need a camera built to the same standard because either they wouldn't put it to the same kind of use or didn't require quite the same level of precision. These are enthusiasts who still seek the fine art of photography in their spare time that pros make a living at.

IMHO, the Zeiss Ikon is the camera that Leica should have built. It fills the same niche that Nikon filled for decades with the N8008/F801, N/F90, F100. As good as these cameras were, they weren't an F4, F5, or F6. But they did everything that any amateur could want, they were well built, & they were embraced by many pros for a variety of reasons. Leica has eschewed this opportunity. Seeing their potential cusomers buy on the used market did nothing for their corporate balance sheet.

The Zeiss Ikon & the Hexar RF before it mean that the consumer doesn't have to settle for the choice of Leica or the short base line of a Bessa. It's nice to have greater choices.

The Leica response to the ZI is the used market -- M6 or M7. Now true, you only may get a 90 day warranty as compared to the one year warranty of the ZI, but these things are built like a tank and are unlikely to have any problems. I bet used M6's on Ebay in mint go for as little as $900.

Now what's a better deal, the new ZI for $1600 with AP or the tried and tested M6 for $700 less? That's a tough question.

 

[Huck Finn]

Plus, all the rangefinder folks I know pretty much dedicatte one body to one lens, and only use a couple different focal lenghts.

You must hang out with some really rich folks. 😀

 

[Socke]

No, from Hong Kong it is still in the $2550 range. And there are several reputable dealers. Now, you don't get a USA waaranty, but a 2 year International one, but the point is that you still can get new for far less then your claiming.

I'm a coward, I buy expensive items from real brick and mortar shops which I can reach by car within a couple of hours.

So I compare a ZI from Foto Huppert to a M7 from Foto Bischoff, thats 1459 Euro against 3350 Euro, as I have no M-Mount lenses add a 35/2 Biogon for 972 instead of a 35/2 Summicron for 1950 Euro!

So for 2431 Euro I have a camera with higher flash sync, I use flash, and faster shutterspeed, I don't use ND filters, than the 5300 alternative.

Both without hassle with import duty, taxes and support I can reach without international shipping.

 

[Socke]

Now what's a better deal, the new ZI for $1600 with AP or the tried and tested M6 for $700 less? That's a tough question.

Tried and tested or worn out?

Would you buy a new Toyota Camry or a tried and tested BMW 750 at the same price for your daily comute?