Zone system understanding

There's two parts to the zone system. One is understanding the range of zones in a scene, exposing the film to meet that range, and developing it to capture that range. As mentioned, not practical for roll film.

The other part is in the printing, knowing how to print your desired range of tones to paper, given that paper has less tonal range than film, especially if you have a long range of tones on your film.

Other than LF photographers, I think few people use zone system now.
 
Zone

Zone

welshzorki said:
Just found this thread. Jeez it's been years since i thought about the zone system. I mostly shoot digital for work so my cameras are set as flat as possible and i use a sony A7rii so i have massive dynamic range at my disposal. But for shooting black and white film correct me if i'm wrong here but zone sysyem or not, if you shoot say a 100iso film at a scene that has extreme sun blown highlights and deep dark shadows all you can do is try to find as close to the unblown highlights as possible without total shadow density then try to bring what you can back in the printing. Do people still print on multigrade??? Years ago i spent a month work experience at Manum in London and their darkroom technician taught me a lot about printing on multigrade. This is 25 years ago mind you.
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25 years 100 years, if it is valid, works when extended to extremes. Expose for one, dev for the other...always works.
 
waileong said:
There's two parts to the zone system. One is understanding the range of zones in a scene, exposing the film to meet that range, and developing it to capture that range. As mentioned, not practical for roll film.

The other part is in the printing, knowing how to print your desired range of tones to paper, given that paper has less tonal range than film, especially if you have a long range of tones on your film.

Other than LF photographers, I think few people use zone system now.
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Exactly why Harry's book is such a worthwhile read !
He explains about the Zone System and as he works in 35mm, how he intends for us to be able to use it; still, some people you won't be able to help.
 
Steve M. said:
. . . metering . . . a middle value is usually fine for most shots.. . .
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Dear Steve,

No, no, no.

Meter the darkest area in which you want texture, using the "shadow" index on the meter, or use the main index, and give 2-3 stops LESS exposure. Unless you meter the shadows you CANNOT be sure that you will get enough detail in them. A mid-tone (including the worthless 18% grey) works only for subjects with a fairly short tonal range.

Cheers,

R.
 
Roger's (and Frances') book 'Perfect Exposure' is the best source on exposure I've ever read. Someone swiped my copy, I'm going to buy it again.
 
If the photo in your initial post is typical of what you will be doing, I'd say, study a bit about the zone system if you want, but it isn't so applicable to that kind of shooting. There are more practical approaches to applying some knowledge of sensitometry to what you are doing.
 
Zoned

Zoned

I would say much of what we do with a camera is intuitive.

Most of us know that Adams invested much time in printing, even going so far as to plot out his exposures over a period of days on proofs by area, which was/is both artful and thorough.

I used to be fascinated with how he did things and thought much of it was a combination of genius (ability), pragmatism (practicality) and chance. I think, he learned by doing, basically. Adams became his prints.

I tried to imitate some of his efforts, but always ended up "doing what came naturally." It was "feeling," educated feeling, but gut feeling nevertheless.

In other words, I did what I thought would work, as most of us do in different ways, as noted above. Some when we expose, some later in the dark...

Accordingly, we all differ and the avenues to final product vary. I am not denigrating Adams or his use of the "zone system.

Somehow, we tend to judge our work in "zone system" terms.

I would suggest that the "zone system" has taken on the role of "standard."

For some that may be true; others not so. Whether or not that is so makes no difference.

In the end, the end product is what counts, the print.

The esthetics of a good print "is" within some of us naturally, some not so naturally. does not matter how we get there.

Too, with some of us, practice makes perfect; with others no rate level of practice changes much. Examples abound.
 
The Zone System Craftbook by John Charles Woods

I found this very helpful in covering the techniques that gave one the most control of the negative side without geeking out too much.
Placing zones and adjusting exposure and development for a desired negative.

As well, It becomes more technical in later chapters if you are into learning about how to use a Densitometer and getting into manufactures specs and charts.

Get yourself a good spot meter. :)
 
Now that everyone else has told you the zone system is bull****, or doesn't work with roll film, or that you need to read their favorite book on it...I will go ahead and answer your question directly.

Your meter gives a reading that will place the area you meter on Zone V. Middle gray. To get Zone III, you give two stops LESS exposure, since Zone III is a darker tone.

If you metered on the hair you wanted to be Zone III then gave two stops more exposure, you overexposed it badly by placing that hair on Zone VII, a light gray. This pushed up all the tones in the photo so that everything else was way too overexposed as well.

I've used the Zone system for roll film for 25 yrs. It works, and the proof is in my photos.
 
Chris, few posts that I read said using zone was BS...that I read. Zone is fine, but not the apex for art, which I gather you understand...
 
We were all just keeping the thread warm for you to come save the day!


Chriscrawfordphoto said:
Now that everyone else has told you the zone system is bull****, or doesn't work with roll film, or that you need to read their favorite book on it...I will go ahead and answer your question directly.

Your meter gives a reading that will place the area you meter on Zone V. Middle gray. To get Zone III, you give two stops LESS exposure, since Zone III is a darker tone.

If you metered on the hair you wanted to be Zone III then gave two stops more exposure, you overexposed it badly by placing that hair on Zone VII, a light gray. This pushed up all the tones in the photo so that everything else was way too overexposed as well.

I've used the Zone system for roll film for 25 yrs. It works, and the proof is in my photos.
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Chriscrawfordphoto said:
Now that everyone else has told you the zone system is bull****, or doesn't work with roll film, or that you need to read their favorite book on it...I will go ahead and answer your question directly.

Your meter gives a reading that will place the area you meter on Zone V. Middle gray. To get Zone III, you give two stops LESS exposure, since Zone III is a darker tone.

If you metered on the hair you wanted to be Zone III then gave two stops more exposure, you overexposed it badly by placing that hair on Zone VII, a light gray. This pushed up all the tones in the photo so that everything else was way too overexposed as well.

I've used the Zone system for roll film for 25 yrs. It works, and the proof is in my photos.
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A more detailed way of what i said :) what ever point you meter off that becomes your middle grey so in order to get the most out of the whole scene that metered point (in question in your shot) wants to be as dark as it can without being black and losing detail. So whether it's two or three stops more open or faster shutter speed, either way by deciding you want the hair metered you are telling the camera/ meter that is the point in the image that is zone V but you are going to over rule that and make it darker. On the fly you can't exactly get out a graded card and stop and think about it but in my head i will think right that's the exposure now how do i want the shot to look and make adjustments on that basis.
 
Hey Jake; You said you've been reading "The Negative". If you have even a partial understanding of the Zone System, you can find by reading through this thread that many posting have little understanding of its requirements in order to make the desired negative.

The Zone System is a refinement of "Expose for shadows - Develop for highlights". Altering your exposure will help with shadow detail, but unless you alter your development time (if it's called for) you won't have control over the highlight values.

The big problem with roll film, unless the whole roll is exposed under the same lighting conditions, is that altering the development time will help some exposures and hurt others.

Reading through the BS on this thread will be good training as per the level of BS and ego displayed (often) in this kind of setting.

Good luck with your work.

Best, pkr
 
PKR said:
Hey Jake; You said you've been reading "The Negative". If you have even a partial understanding of the Zone System, you can find by reading through this thread that many posting have little understanding of its requirements in order to make the desired negative.

The Zone System is a refinement of "Expose for shadows - Develop for highlights". Altering your exposure will help with shadow detail, but unless you alter your development time (if it's called for) you won't have control over the highlight values.

The big problem with roll film, unless the whole roll is exposed under the same lighting conditions, is that altering the development time will help some exposures and hurt others.

Reading through the BS on this thread will be good training as per the level of BS and ego displayed often in this kind of setting.

Good luck with your work.

Best, pkr
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As noted, just so +1 and your "talent."
 
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