Unusual 6cm f1.5 Sonnar in LTM

raid said:
Below, the author is concluding that the lens is similar to the 58mm Biotar and is not a 60mm lens. He also concludes that the lens is obviously larger in diameter than Contax lens 50/1.5.


"Der Durchmesser der Frontlinse des hier besprochenen
Objektivs ist auffällig größer als der eines 5-cm-
CONTAX-Objektivs der Lichtstärke 1,5 (immerhin
1⁄2 cm). Schon deshalb kann die Richtigkeit der angegebenen
Brennweite bezweifelt werden. I

ch habe die Feststellung zum Anlaß genommen, Bildausschnittsvergleiche
durchzuführen. Als Vergleichsoptiken dienten
diverse 50-mm-Objektive unterschiedlicher Hersteller
(LEICA, CANON, STEINHEIL, UdSSR) sowie ein auf
LEICA adaptiertes M-42-Biotar 2 / 58 von CARL ZEISS
JENA. Ergebnis: Es gab völlige Gesichtsfeldübereinstimmung
zwischen dem Prüfling und dem Vergleichsstück
namens Biotar, wohingegen alle übrigen für den Test
eingesetzten Objektive deutlich mehr abbildeten.

Resümee:
Es kann wohl davon ausgegangen werden, daß die für
die LEICA gefertigten 1,5er Sonnare ohne Herstellerangabe
auf einer einheitlichen Rechnung beruhen, die
auf eine Brennweite von 5,8 cm hinausgelaufen ist, ganz
gleich, ob diese auf dem einzelnen Objektiv auch so, mit
5 oder mit 6 cm angegeben ist."
Click to expand...

You misread this. He was testing several lenses to compare
FOV and concluded that the 6cm Sonnar, much like the 5cm Sonnar
had the same FOV than the 58mm M42 Biotar, namely 58mm.
 
Roland,

I repeat what I said before; the"comma" in the 1,5 on the ebay lens is not as pronounced as the one in the original lens. This supports what Mark said above about inconsistencies when compared to lettering on other Zeiss Jena lenses.
 
ferider said:
You misread this. He was testing several lenses to compare
FOV and concluded that the 6cm Sonnar, much like the 5cm Sonnar
had the same FOV than the 58mm M42 Biotar, namely 58mm.
Click to expand...

Roland: This is what I meant by "similar lens". He said that it is not a true 60mm lens.
 
raid said:
Roland,

I repeat what I said before; the"comma" in the 1,5 on the ebay lens is not as pronounced as the one in the original lens. This supports what Mark said above about inconsistencies when compared to lettering on other Zeiss Jena lenses.
Click to expand...

Yes, I heard you. You forget that the 6cm lens depicted by William
might be 15 years or more younger, made AFTER the war. While
the other one is pre-war or war-time. Which is like comparing the
scripture and built of a Leitz Summicron from the later 70s to one of the
early 60s ...


I'll stop now on the subject. I'll buy a copy of Thiele when I'm in Germany
next time and will wait if Marc has any more comments.

Best,

Roland.
 
Last edited:
Roland:

Where would you buy the book by Thiele? Is it not available online?
I will take another good look at the baey lens.
 
A Humble Retraction

A Humble Retraction

Yes, I once thought that the 1.5/6cm Sonnars were genuine CZJ products. I no longer believe this to be the case. These lenses are closely tied to the 1.5/5.8cm "Leica-Sonnars" which we now know are bogus. They are interesting lenses and have a collector base of their own, but they are not CZJ products for the all of it. A German scholar named Thiele has been going over the CZJ factory records and publishing these and, to make a long story short, there is no factory record of either a 1.5/5.8cm or 1.5/6cm Sonnar. That is not dispositive, of course, as the CZJ records were comproised by decades of Socialist Excellence in Record Keeping, but this is a pointer. We have had these 5.8cm lenses analyzed by repair experts accustomed to the overhaul of some really off-the-wall CZJ gear. We have had them X-rayed. There is no question that the 5.8cm lenses are not factory products though we still have not cnfirmed one way or the other whether the lens elements were of Jena manufacture.

So, yes, this 6cm lens is almost certainly not a CZJ product. What is it worth? Shucks, guys, McKeown's law applies, and we shall see. I own three of the 5.8cm lenses, and the higher the bidding goes, the higher my portfolio runs.

There are deals out there. I have gotten a lot of kind thank-yous for advice given over the years, including some premium Formosa Oolong tea and bunches of camea literature. The kindest gift of all remains the 1.5/7.5cm CZJ Biotar T in LTM sold to me for $250 by a VERY kind soul in repyment for services rendered. A decade later, we still only know of six such lenses and heavens only knows what Stan Tamarkin could do with that at one of his auctions!

This lens is not such a deal, but it has a cachet for certain collectors and will go to one of these. And well it should.

Marc
 
Theile's Books

Theile's Books

Hartmut Thiele's works are available from the logical choices, Petra Kellers in the US, Peter Loy in the UK, and Lindemann's in Germany. For those in the US, check out:

<http://www.camerabooks.com/>

Marc
 
Hello Marc,
I am one of the many people you have assisted in figuring our whether a lens was genuine Zeiss or a bogus lens. Thanks again. In my case, it was Zeiss Jena 5cm/2 LTM that you linked to a deal of 200 lenses sent to Sweden in return for metal ore!

I wish I had a 7.5cm/1.5 to send you ... 😱

Welcome to this forum. I hope that you will make it a place to which you return to chat about your speciality. Thanks again.
 
Question is......what do these things do?

What do the f1.5 58mm fake "Leica Sonnars" photos look like when they shoot?

Are they are least usable lenses or good performers?

Anyone have any portrait samples?

Curious

Tom
 
raid said:
This lens will sell for about $450-$550 with a high probaabiltiy. [sigh sigh sigh]

Mark,

It would be interesting,as you said, if someone knowledgeable on Zeiss collectibles helps out here. Most likely, we will not see such a lens again for many years, if at all.
Click to expand...

The lens sold for $410. I was close.
 
Raid, I have to wonder if the debunking that this lens received on RFF hurt the sale price. Many folks, and even a guru or two, deemed the lens to be a forgery.
 
Mark,
In this case, the buyer got lucky and the seller lost a little.
On the other hand,and if the lens is a forgery, the buyer saved some money and the seller made a little more than needed.

It was a win-win situation.

Knowledge never hurts. We only had opinions,but this was better than nothing at all.
 
Re Marc's remarks (remarcs?) on the LTM version of the C.Z. Jena 7.5cm f/1.5 Biotar:

Having been lucky enough to own one of those six examples for a while (in rough mechanical condition, but with good glass) and having taken quite a few pictures with it (I had not idea back then that it was so rare, so had no worries about carrying it around and using it) I can testify that this is a rather special lens in terms of imaging qualities.

It's certainly not conventionally "crisp" in the way that, say, a 105/2.5 Nikkor is, but it produces images with a distinctive look that can be very beautiful for some subjects.

What I wonder: Now that Zeiss has re-introduced the 50mm f/1.5 Sonnar specifically for photographers (e.g. LeicaTom above) seeking its distinctive signature... if some prominent photographers with good factory connections were to suggest it, might they consider a re-issue of the 75/1.5 in a modern mount? It seems a bit unfair that so few photographers got a chance to use this lens.

(Of course the 75/1.5 seems to be less uncommon in M42 and Exakta SLR mounts, so users of those platforms have a more accessible way of experiencing it. But after all, this is Rangefinder Forum...)

Picture from my gallery made with the 7.5cm/1.5 Biotar:

U588I1136254783.SEQ.0.jpg
 
jlw said:
Picture from my gallery made with the 7.5cm/1.5 Biotar:
Click to expand...

Beautiful shot!

There`s another lens I didn`t know about in LTM f1.5 75mm Biotar?

I have built so much modern work using a Sony Digital Zeiss Sonnar lens that I want to keep the signature in real film, while it`s a real part of my Photography style

I`ve bought the Canon f1.5 50mm and the Nikkor f1.4 50mm and f2.0 85mm also has similar "sonnar" style signatures

I wish I could find something REAL Zeiss glass in LTM for a good user, I`m not really concerned about it being so collectable, I just want the look 🙂

I wonder who`s the Zeiss guru out there that I could ask about LTM mounts?
I know that there`s the prewar f1.5 and f2.0 50mm`s but what other lenses were made by Zeiss in LTM? Was the f2.0 85mm also made in LTM?

And did the postwar Stuttgart company make any Zeiss Opton f1.5 50mm`s in LTM?

I know my Leica stuff, while I was a hardcore collector back in the 80`s and 90`s, but I collected Leitz only.......I sold it all years ago and now with my PinUp Photography and another small collection of LTM bodies, I`m more concerned with the look all my lenses give while I`m really shooting with my cameras this time, it`s way much more fun then collecting that`s for sure! 😀

Tom

PS: That f1.5 58mm Leica Sonnar in my earlier post on Evilbay was a fake and it still brought over $260

I wonder how the performance of that lens is?
 
Last edited:
L39UK said:
I know that there`s the prewar f1.5 and f2.0 50mm`s but what other lenses were made by Zeiss in LTM? Was the f2.0 85mm also made in LTM?

And did the postwar Stuttgart company make any Zeiss Opton f1.5 50mm`s in LTM?

TOM (Leica Tom)

Pre-war and Wartime(Carl Zeiss Jena) LTM.
5cm F1.4 Biotar.
2.8cm F8 Tessar.
3.5cm F2.8 Biogon.
3.5cm F3.5 Herar.
5cm F1.5 Sonnar.
5cm F2 Sonnar Rigid.
5cm F2 Sonnar Collapsible.
8.5cm F2 Sonnar.
13.5cm F4 Sonnar.
13.5cm F4.5 Triotar.

Post War Carl Zeiss Jena (East Germany) LTM. serial no's 3,xxx,xxx.
In very limited production:-
3.5cm F2.8 Biometar.
5cm F1.5 Sonnar.
5cm F2 Sonnar.
7.5cm F1.5 Biotar.
and there may be others but in very small numbers.


Post War Carl Zeiss (Oberkochen - Opton) West Germany did not produce any LTM mount lenses but did produce for Leitz a Leica M-mount version of the Carl Zeiss 15mm F8 Hologon lens in limited numbers (I believe to special order through Leitz).
Click to expand...

Thanks for all that info 🙂

Tom
 
CJZ LTM Sonnar 60 mm f 1.5 serial numbers

CJZ LTM Sonnar 60 mm f 1.5 serial numbers

L39UK said:
Hello Raid,

The only genuine 60mm F1.5 Sonnars were of immediate Post-war construction,and only 50 were manufactured,25 each in LTM and Contax bayonet.These 50 lenses would have serial numbers in the Post-war serial number range of 3xxx,xxx.These lenses are well known in the collector field and rarely come for sale.A typical example of this genuine Post-war production can be seen in Marc James Small's publication "Non-Leitz Leica Thread Mount Lenses" at the bottom of plate 3 on page 133. I will try to insert a photo of this lens for the benefit of all who have interest in this thread.
William
Click to expand...
I'm new here and not a Leica user, collecter etc. The reason I got here was that it was the only source to check some data on this lens. I have seen the picture of the genuine one you linked to on this list. Based on pictures I have seen of another genuine one (everything points to that) I have to question the assumption that the serial number starts with a 3. Whether that indicates that the lenses are made in another period than after WWII or that Carl Zeiss Jena wasn't so Gründlich in numbering is beyond my knowledge. Every other aspect of the lens I have seen in the photographs of that lens is correct and its serial number is at the higher end of the 25 produced, the picture as linked in this list must be at the lower end if only 25 with LTM were produced. The linked picture of the genuine one only shows the last 3 digits. The lens I'm writing about is not mine but owned by a friend who got it from an uncle who passed away several years ago. The uncle, a pro photographer and collecter/user of fast lenses like the Ernostar and of some lesser known English post WWII fast lenses. I'm vague about the serial number as I get the impression from this list that it isn't wise to give too much details. Something I can understand in relation to the copies that exist or may appear.

Kind regards, Ernst Dinkla
 
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