M4-P. An undervalued gem?

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TJV

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Hello all,
doing a quick check on ebay on completed listings I get the feeling that the M4-P, especially the ones made in Canada, are a real under valued item. By this I mean that they seem to sell for much less than any other model, including the M5! The original M4 was a real treasure, for sure, and a mint one is perhaps more of a collectors rather than a user item which is reflected in the going price. But the M4-P seems to be overshadowd by the M6 with it's new fangled light meter etc.
After some thinking, I reckon the M4-P could be my perfect M body. No electronics, new enough to not be so risky to buy as an M3 or M2 in terms of reliability, black paint, framelines for 28-135 and quick load.
Thoughts?
J
 
About US 200-250 cheaper than an M6. See

http://members.aol.com/dcolucci/mmount.htm

The M4-2 is even better priced but lacks the 28mm line, obviously.

If you are really on a budget and want the best M body 🙂) ) get
an M2, not the same risk of problems on the used market as
the M3.

A VCII meter is not much cheaper than the difference in price between 4p and 6.

Best,

Roland.
 
I recently entered the M world. I too was pondering the M4-P. I found a deal on an M4-2, made in Canada, with a high serial number. Since buying it last month I have run about 10 rolls through and it works great.

Don't discount the M4-2 if you come across one. 🙂

Cheers,
Brandon.
 
Isn't it weird. I've had an M7, M6 Classic, 2x M3's (loved them but they both developed warped shutters causing fogging) and and 3 (faulty) M8's and I've always said that if I had to put together a custom Leica body it would be an MP with M7 rewind crank minus the electrics. Now, considering that the only difference between this dream machine and an M4-P is the wind on leaver and a few minor cosmetics, I think I've found my best bet for a go everywhere, even in the rain, camera.

The M7 is my current user but I'm wanting something I can keep loaded with 1600 ISO film with a Nocti mounted for night street work.
Hope I win the auction I'm bidding on...

J
 
Undervalued, perhaps, but not a gem.

The camera was a cheapened version of the M4, hence the lower price.

$250 is not much in the Leica world, and you'll get it back when you resell the M6 or M3 or M4 anyway. But the craftsmanship of an M2 or M3 easily blows away M4-P. Or if you're into big metered cameras, even the M5 is a better camera.
 
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I'm partial to the M4-2...I don't miss the 28mm frameline as 35mm is my preferred focal length, and there's no red dot on the M4-2. 🙂
 
waileong said:
Undervalued, perhaps, but not a gem.

The camera was a cheapened version of the M4, hence the lower price.

$250 is not much in the Leica world, and you'll get it back when you resell the M6 or M3 or M4 anyway. But the craftsmanship of an M2 or M3 easily blows away M4-P. Or if you're into big metered cameras, even the M5 is a better camera.
Click to expand...

Not to be rude, but this argument over craftsmanship has always sounded strange to me. There are a few ultra minor things that make the M4 and prior models of better build, like brass vs hardened metal components, but in practice it doesn't mean a thing. In fact, the newer components are proven to be more robust and made with tighter tollerances. The only thing about the M3 worth paying extra for is the high mag viewfinder and better, less flair prone properties it has. It seems obvious that the M3 wasn't really designed for modern high speed films. They are less "light tight", with light often fogging film by getting under the shutter curtain in less than perfect bodies with older seals. And lets face it, if you buy a user of e-bay it's gonna be a 50 year old camera and well used. Sure, a newly CLA'd M3 with perfect curtains and seals will be fine, but it's not exactly cheap to get any camera dismantled, let alone a Leica, any Leica, and have the thing revived to "as new."

Having said all this, if I could afford a near mint M3 with new shutter and as new tuning I'd get it in a heart beat! And I guess that's my point. Although an M4-P is not an M3, it doesn't have the lovely little edges around the rangefinder windows etc and it doesn't quite have the smooth brass gears or lovely viewfinder, it's still a Leica and made to last. And best of all, if you're after a user and don't care for electronics, which I don't, or want a "normal" mag viewfinder for use without external viewfinders, the M4-P seems, to me at least, like the best value for money Leica M.

I guess I'm just surprised at how much less they've been fetching of late. Some past e-bay auctions have ended for only $520 for ok user models. I never knew that would be the case. And to be honest, I'd vever even considered an M4 in any of its forms before realising this.

j
 
waileong said:
Undervalued, perhaps, but not a gem.

The camera was a cheapened version of the M4, hence the lower price.
Click to expand...

Is that received Internet wisdom or based on personal experience?
Based on a couple decades' steady use of an M2 and an M4-P, I have found them equally good shooters in terms of reliability.
 
So get the brass top version, as it will get you in good with the lady in your life 😀 If the rangefinder windows are flush with the edge of the housing, it is a zinc top-plate. If the windows are recessed into the top-plate it has the brass top-plate. The switch was made around SN # 1610 000 according to the Leica FAQ.
 
TJV- the brass M4-Ps don't look much different from the zinc ones - they just have recessed windows around the finder. The M4-Ps are great cameras-- but as with any camera, they don't take the pictures, you do.
You and I are very unlikely to ever notice the subtle difference in quality along the Leica M series line - as are most of us who spend more time reading this forum than shooting photos. Pick up an M4-p and spend the money you saved on some great glass and extra film - that is where it will count!


 
Xxx

Xxx

I'm not talking about reliability. The fact that M4-P's can be used today testify to their reliability.

I'm sure that a properly serviced Canon A1 could last 50 years too, and they can be had for $100 or so now. Ditto properly serviced Bessa R3M's could probably last a long time too.

I'm talking about feel. Just like a car with Conolly leather seats will feel very different from a car with fabric seats. Both could last very long if properly serviced, but you one is definitely cheapened from the other.

Joe Brugger said:
Is that received Internet wisdom or based on personal experience?
Based on a couple decades' steady use of an M2 and an M4-P, I have found them equally good shooters in terms of reliability.
Click to expand...
 
M4-P is a great camera. Probably not meant for collecting, or fondling, or showing off. It rarely 'wows' people, but it's a great shooter. I like mine naked with a Luigi leather strap and a CV 35/2.5. Kinky!!


🙂
 
dpetrzelka said:
TJV- the brass M4-Ps don't look much different from the zinc ones - they just have recessed windows around the finder. The M4-Ps are great cameras-- but as with any camera, they don't take the pictures, you do.
You and I are very unlikely to ever notice the subtle difference in quality along the Leica M series line - as are most of us who spend more time reading this forum than shooting photos. Pick up an M4-p and spend the money you saved on some great glass and extra film - that is where it will count!


Click to expand...


You've hit the nail on the head. Being able to buy an M4-P AND still afford a bulk load of film is a massive plus compared to buying just a camera.

As I said before, I don't know why I've never even considered an M4 or any kind before.
 
RayPA said:
M4-P is a great camera. Probably not meant for collecting, or fondling, or showing off. It rarely 'wows' people, but it's a great shooter. I like mine naked with a Luigi leather strap and a CV 35/2.5. Kinky!!


🙂
Click to expand...
I agree with that the M4-P is probably not meant for collecting or fondling but ... it "wows" people more than the M6, M3, MP I had or have 😀

I went the way M6 (sold) -> MP (now at service and will be kept) -> M3 (sold) M3 with M2 VF (sold) -> M4-P. I wanted a meter-less M body with 28mm frame-lines as 2. body and now the M4-P is my most used camera. Recently took it to a business trip (with the 50 Summicron Rigid and the 28mm Elmarit III) and it was just a great experience. Sometimes I use a hand held meter (Gossen Digisix) but mostly I estimate the exposure.

My M4-P was recently serviced by Youxin Ye and now it is like new again. The only thing I didn't like about the M4-P was the advance lever so I ordered a M3 type black one from DAG and exchanged it myself.

With Luigi strap and Summilux 35mm pre-ASPH

1281753159_b7427f9fd9.jpg
 
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