M4-P Shutter Curtain Wave

[OneJohnFourTwelve]

Hello, good people of this forum. I wanted to ask if the shutter curtain on my M4-P is something to be worried about? There seems to be a wave at the top left corner (almost near the middle) that subsides past the lower middle. I'm not seeing any light leaks on my photos nor do I feel/hear any mechanical inconsistencies/issues when I'm using it. I see it when the shutter is cocked. I do wonder if my camera will need repair soon, or if it needs repair now. Many thanks!

 

[Godfrey]

My advice is to just use it and have the shutter overhauled if/when it fails.

My M4-2 was acquired in 2011. The viewfinder was full of dirt and the rangefinder was sticky. I had the viewfinder serviced and my tech guy told me the shutter was a little slow at 1/500 and 1/1000 second settings; it's about a half stop off at 1/1000 and about a third off at 1/500 across the field... He recommended I have the shutter overhauled if it caused me any problems. I said sure, and have been shooting with it for the past, what?, fourteen years and haven't seen any significant issues. Some day I'll have it overhauled.... 😉

These things don't have to be perfect, they just have to work. And when they break, you fix them. That's all.

G

 

[splitimageview]

As long as it is light-tight and the speeds are good, it should be fine, it could be adjusted so it is fully tensioned and there is no bend but it may last quite a long time as it is. I'd inspect it every time you load and unload.

 

[xayraa33]

Hello, good people of this forum. I wanted to ask if the shutter curtain on my M4-P is something to be worried about? There seems to be a wave at the top left corner (almost near the middle) that subsides past the lower middle. I'm not seeing any light leaks on my photos nor do I feel/hear any mechanical inconsistencies/issues when I'm using it. I see it when the shutter is cocked. I do wonder if my camera will need repair soon, or if it needs repair now. Many thanks!View attachment 4882778

I would get that looked after by a known Leica camera tech, it could be one shutter curtain ribbon is loosening up from its adhesive and it would be worse and a more costly repair if it lets go. I had a Fed 4 camera that would have the shutter curtain ribbon glue surface soften up in humid summer conditions .

 

[Bill Blackwell]

... There seems to be a wave at the top left corner (almost near the middle) that subsides past the lower middle. I'm not seeing any light leaks on my photos nor do I feel/hear any mechanical inconsistencies/issues when I'm using it. I see it when the shutter is cocked. I do wonder if my camera will need repair soon, or if it needs repair now. ...

Keep an eye on it, but since there are no other issues, for now I'd do nothing. I recently had a conversation with Don Goldberg ("DAG") on a very similar issue and that's pretty much what he said.

 

[Duofold RF]

Set the shutter speed to B. Fire the shutter and hold it open. Observe the first curtain: its edge (or bar) should 1–2 mm from the edge of the film gate.
Cock the shutter and set the speed to 1/50. Fire the shutter and immediately try to gently pull the first curtain further in its travel direction: it should have about 0.5 mm of play (due to the brake cushioning the stop).
The possible causes include:
The curtain brake need to be adjusted
Issues with the shutter curtain ribbons (e.g., stretched, worn, or improperly tensioned during maintenance/replacement).

Hope this helps

 

[OneJohnFourTwelve]

Set the shutter speed to B. Fire the shutter and hold it open. Observe the first curtain: its edge (or bar) should 1–2 mm from the edge of the film gate.
Cock the shutter and set the speed to 1/50. Fire the shutter and immediately try to gently pull the first curtain further in its travel direction: it should have about 0.5 mm of play (due to the brake cushioning the stop).
The possible causes include:
The first curtain brake need to be adjusted
Issues with the shutter curtain ribbons (e.g., stretched, worn, or improperly tensioned during maintenance/replacement).

Hope this helps

Hi, thanks for your suggestion. When set at B and the shutter held, the bar is about 1mm from the edge of the film gate.

I was trying to do the second instruction when I noticed that the mechanism seems to stop with the edge of the uncocked curtain still visible in some instances. Please see photo.
The photo shows the curtain after I released the shutter. When I recocked and release again, the edge was not visible anymore. I was able to replicate this moving from 1/50 to 1/60 or 1/60 to 1/125. Once the curtain goes back to normal, I go back to 1/50 the cock and release and then go to 1/60 or 1/125 and the edge would be visible again.

 

[Duofold RF]

It seems your shutter brake need to be cleared and adjusted

 

[Duofold RF]

My advice is to just use it and have the shutter overhauled if/when it fails.

My M4-2 was acquired in 2011. ……. it's about a half stop off at 1/1000 and about a third off at 1/500 across the field... He recommended I have the shutter overhauled if it caused me any problems. I said sure, and have been shooting with it for the past, what?, fourteen years and haven't seen any significant issues. Some day I'll have it overhauled.... 😉
These things don't have to be perfect, they just have to work. And when they break, you fix them. That's all.

Leica’s mechanical shutters are notoriously inaccurate at 1/1000 sec, typically delivering actual speeds closer to 1/700–1/800 sec. For black-and-white film, this deviation is usually negligible and shouldn’t pose any issues.
Just as with people, regular preventive maintenance is essential to keep a Leica in top condition.😃😄

 

[Godfrey]

Leica’s mechanical shutters are notoriously inaccurate at 1/1000 sec, typically delivering actual speeds closer to 1/700–1/800 sec. For black-and-white film, this deviation is usually negligible and shouldn’t pose any issues.
Just as with people, regular preventive maintenance is essential to keep a Leica in top condition.😃😄

Thx. I've been shooting with Leica M cameras since 1971... 😉 In my experience, they're not notorious for anything, just a 1950s design that's only been lightly upgraded since.

The issue with my M4-2 shutter is that it runs slower on one end of the run than on the other by the amounts i said at 1/500 and 1/1000 second. This means it likely needs a good clean and lube, probably a couple of new curtains and springs as well as this is usually indicative of a worn braking action. But it's not so far off or obvious that I've been motivated to send it in for service yet. Someday soon. 😀

G

 

[Duofold RF]

Thx. I've been shooting with Leica M cameras since 1971... 😉 In my experience, they're not notorious for anything, just a 1950s design that's only been lightly upgraded since……. Someday soon. 😀 G

Another “notorious” shutter is Leicaflex SL2, at 1/2000, if cock the shutter, put away for few hours or longer, then release the shutter, it will not open, you got a blank frame. This is not a CLA issue even after DAG’s repair, it still occur.

 

[Godfrey]

Another “notorious” shutter is Leicaflex SL2, at 1/2000, if cock the shutter, put away for few hours or longer, then release the shutter, it will not open, you got a blank frame. This is not a CLA issue even after DAG’s repair, it still occur.

It's remarkable to me that I've been using, buying, selling all manner of Leica gear (M, SL, SL2, etc), and have been on-line in photo forums since the 1980s, that these notions of "notorious shutter problems" have never surfaced in any conversation before you mention them. 🤔

G

 

[Duofold RF]

According to DAG, the problem lies with the lubricants and the main spring that drives the shutter curtain. As the lubricants age, they become sticky, preventing the shutter from properly forming the narrow slit required for the 1/2000 second exposure. I believe this is a design flaw in Leica’s SL2 shutter, as Japanese cameras like the Nikon F and F2—which ironically copied Leica’s horizontal shutter design—do not exhibit this issue.