Leica LTM It just arrived yesterday.....The 1946 "Half Race" Leica IIIC for Repairs/Restoration

Leica M39 screw mount bodies/lenses
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LeicaTom

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It just arrived yesterday.....The 1946 "Half Race" Leica IIIC for Repairs/Restoration

Well, the IIIC finally arrived yesterday morning from Jack`s Camera ........another very late production "Wartime" stepped rewind platform "Half Race" bearing shutter camera #3974xx from February 13th 1946

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Overall cosmetics are very nice with a few case rub marks on the back of the camera, some brassing/wear on the slow speed dial and some tripod circle rubs on the base plate, the main ugly part is the missing vulcanite

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and it does have a major problem........that`s not a WHITE "K" stamp on the shutter curtain, it`s a nasty hole!

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The shutter curtains need to be patched or replaced and there`s a 1960`s roll of Kodachrome slide film JAMMED in the camera still, must be in there over 35 years now 🙁

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The other "odd" thing about this camera is that the instruction plate is fixed to the camera wrong, it`s upside down, well many will say, this was just put in wrong after a CLA.......but no, this is the SECOND camera I have seen in the 397xxx series that has the upside down instruction plate, this was possibly a workshop mistake with the camera run for the 13th (bad luck day?) well, just strange that both cameras of the same run and same day have this oddity about them?

Anyway the camera looks worse then it really is and all it needs is some TLC and for the "doctor" to have a look at it, which will be happening soon

I do plan on recovering it, still debating weither it will be as original styled vulcanite or something special, I`m inclined to do something for myself that`s personal, this time and I`ve been looking at that website

http://www.cameraleather.com/

And I`m throwing around between these three colors maybe?



Deep Jade



Black Lizzard

or



Levant Black (close to original)

I`ve decided for sure it`s NOT going to become a black paint camera, the chrome finish is way too nice to do that and it`s rare to fnd a camera in these serial number ranges that are in good shape chromewise

Well, I`ll keep everyone informed as to the progress of the Repairs/Restoration

Tom
 
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Nice catch Tom, I was watching this auction but I have decided I need a lot more Leica education. Did you know all the info. about the mechanics of the shutter just by the serial no. or are there any visual clues?

Other than the shutter repair and missing vulcanite, it really looks nice and clean.

Steve

PS I would probably choose the green leather.
 
radiocemetery said:
Nice catch Tom, I was watching this auction but I have decided I need a lot more Leica education. Did you know all the info. about the mechanics of the shutter just by the serial no. or are there any visual clues?

Other than the shutter repair and missing vulcanite, it really looks nice and clean.

Steve

PS I would probably choose the green leather.
Click to expand...

Hello Steve,

Well, I`ve always been a fan of the very late production "Wartime" styled IIIC bodies....first because of vanity,
(I really like that step under the rewind lever and the little knobs on it and the diopter lever)
.....but then as I went on I learned more about them and found they are such good quality shooting cameras 🙂

They call them "Wartime" because of the raised platform below the rewind lever was a trademark of the first series styled Leica IIIC `s which started in 1940

I also have Leica IIIC #3972xx which I researched extensively like 4 months ago, to find it was in an order of cameras built/delivered on February 13th, 1946 Nos # 397208-397519

I don`t have 100% confirmation but I believe these were cameras for the US Army Post Exchance in Germany (Frankfurt) or for use by the US Army CID/MP`s or Military Intelligence Units working in Germany

Many were also given as "gifts" from General Officers to Staff Officers working under them etc.

As for the "Half Race" bearings explanation please go have a look here

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47102

Yes and with the recovering I think I`m leaning toward the Jade Green myself, very pretty

Tom
 
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John Shriver said:
Lovely chrome on that one! Very delicate engraving on the top. Nice enough to almost be tempted to have CRR Luton bake on real Vulcanite.
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Well, I have yet to call them and ask all the details about the job

The insurance and taxes for sending complete cameras back and forth from Europe is crazy and I don`t have 6 months to wait for the body to come back
(Not that this has crossed my mind, becasue both of my 397xxx series bodies are
EX++/Mint Minus and that`s highly uncommon for 1945/46 era cameras)

If they can do it with just the shell and not the camera, I`d consider doing it as camera parts etc. and finish and adjust the camera back to the body here back home
(still would be like a $175 expense) I don`t plan on reselling this, but then it`s an idea to know that I`ve done it, I guess that the EM CRR Luton vulcanite is the ONLY hot treated coverings still being made and it`s the closest to the original factory style vulcanite

No one else does the heat processed vulvanite? .......anyone here in the states?

Thanks for stoppin by John!

Tom

PS: I haven`t put enough money together for my UK trip, but I do want to get over there for shooting some English "pinup" work......then I guess a trip to Luton is in order 🙂
 
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L39UK said:
Hello Raid,
111c Serial Nos. 480,001 to 495,000 1949/ 50

Regards,
William
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Hello William,
Thanks for giving me the production years for my IIIc. Such information makes the camera more interesting to own. My IIIc is then most likely built in 1949. Are the last three digits given in order of production?

Cheers,
 
L39UK said:
Hello Raid,
I believe models were allocated batch numbers of say for example 1000 serial numbers xx2001 to xx3000 and the diecast frames (111c onwards) would be marked with this number.The cameras would be assembled by hand and tested at various stages in assembly and fitted with a top plate with serial number that matched the die cast body serial number.When all cameras in that batch had been assembled and finally checked they would then update the production register and release the batch of cameras to Sales Department.
Because the serial number on the camera body frame casting is always issued with a matching top plate serial number,with Leica cameras it is always possible to check that a camera is original and not made up from the surplus spare main parts from other dis-assembled Leica cameras outside the factory.This is very important with the very rare collectable Leica models and it is vital for the would be purchaser to have the camera stripped down and have this checked as the first stage in helping to confirm authenticity before making any expensive purchase.
Regards,
William
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Hi William,

So there really is no way of telling the exact production month or day.
Thanks again for your clarifications. This is interesting information.

Cheers,
 
Great information here, Tom thanks for the link explaining the half race Leica. Dr LeoB's pictures helped settle that in my mind.


Tom, I guess it is up to you as to which of your Barnack style cameras you are going to sell to me. Will it be that Canon IIf2 or this new old Leica that needs some new clothes? 😉

Steve
 
raid said:
Hi William,

So there really is no way of telling the exact production month or day.
Thanks again for your clarifications. This is interesting information.

Cheers,
Click to expand...

Leitz has ALL the production dates and shipping information in their archives, each camera was listed as to what day it was built and where it was shipped to and or to who received it, just getting to it is the PROBLEM, they don`t have the manpower at the factory to send everyone who asks them information on their cameras
I think that they should sell a "cardex" of the production of the camera, like VW and Porsche do for their owners....it would just take them to HIRE somone special to do the job, would be nice to see them do a service for customers........


I`m going to be pulling some old strings I still have from my collector days back in Germany to find out more information
(I personally received my information from a well known auction house who were selling a very very late
"Half Race" IIIC that was sold at their auction a camera that was like 57 cameras away from the production of this camera)

"Wartime" IIIC`s (pre May 1945 cameras) are maybe easier to track down beacuse Mr Lager has all the information on them in his archives and has also written some very good books on the subject as well, that information is out there

I`m going to personally research the POSTWAR Leica IIIC production history from cameras 391000 onwards to 397600
(about 6,000 and then some cameras)
*The stepped rewind platform cameras built after the German Surrender*
while NOTHING has been published about these cameras, they have always been thrown in the "lot" with other wartime era cameras , but they have a very interesting history all of their own as well

So if anyone out there in RFF world who owns a Leica IIIC "Stepped Rewind Platform" camera built between 392000 to 397600
give me a yell off the board while I`ll add your camera to my records and will try to find out more about your camera

Tom
 
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L39UK said:
A few years back Leica had an information service where one could contact a Herr Francis Pilet who had access to the original registers and he could give you information on Leica cameras and lenses from even the early Leitz production. He could give you the shipping date from the factory and to whom it had been delivered.This service was provided free of charge but is now no longer available. I am sure that if Leica at Solms were to make a small charge for this service say $20 for each inquiry the service would be self financing.I am sure many Leica enthusiasts would be very willing to pay this small charge in order to get this interesting information from the Leica archive. Has anybody suggested this to Leica at Solms?
Regards, William
Click to expand...

I think that`s a great idea.....I`d pay for the service, just as I have for my old vintage VW`s, I`m talking to someone in Wetzlar this week

Tom
 
Ron (Netherlands) said:
Although I am more into Zorkis than Leicas: I saw one Leica with this number:
Fl.No 38079 , is that one of the German army?
It is a IIIc with body nr. 337341
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Re edited: it was #377341 = which clearly might be a Luftwaffen Leica IIIC, But I know where this camera came from and how much it was bought for, plus it`s been submerged in water or held in a very bad climate for a long time, any sort of restoration would be impossible, it`s also just a camera with the fl. no on the top plate, no other Luftwaffen markings, that means it had grey vulcanite at one time and that`s fallen off and been replaced with the black and with it went the original "Luftwaffen Eigenturm" embossing on it.......

Tom

PS: this camera was/is on the evilbay at $1,000 that`s CRAZY money, you can buy a really clean one if you research and take your time for $2,000 to $3,000 and maybe even get the original matching numbers lens
 
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radiocemetery said:
Great information here, Tom thanks for the link explaining the half race Leica. Dr LeoB's pictures helped settle that in my mind.


Tom, I guess it is up to you as to which of your Barnack style cameras you are going to sell to me. Will it be that Canon IIf2 or this new old Leica that needs some new clothes? 😉

Steve
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Heya Steve,

Well, I did have one of the IIF2`s up for sale last month, but it`s become such a great user, that I`ve decided not to sell it
- sorry

I might consider trading/selling the IIF2 "SHOW" camera, it`s complete down to the very rare case and grip and a f1.5 50mm on it , but it would`nt be cheap....I`d be more interested in the trade for the camera I`m looking for below *read on*

Ohh the "Half Race`s" are not for sale , I`m pretty much looking for any of them I can find in good shape, I have late one`s and a early postwar "ball bearing" shutter camera coming soon, maybe down the road I`ll look for a nice mid range serial numbered one, but I`m off the camera trading/buying trail for a while, but the next project I do want is a really run down IIIC K Grey for a
full restoration project
*This will take some time to find a suitable camera at a price I can agree with, also one that`s verified, has like less than 30% original paint and most if not all vulcanite gone, I have to find a camera that was really used hard*

I did recently have a 1946' Leica IIIC in the #402xxx series that was really really clean and worked flawlessly (without a CLA) sold it for $225
*I think that was the fastest Leica sale I ever made on the net....it lasted less than 2 hours!*

Tom
 
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Tom,
I am just beginning to do homework on the Leicas and other Barnack style cameras. I bought a lens from David Murphy and mentioned to him that I was looking at a Zorki as a user and a "to learn on camera". He suggested that I consider a Canon RF instead. So I read up on the Canons and have been sniped numerous times on that auction site trying to get one. That doesn't really bother me as these cameras seem to come up regularly.

My problem is that I have never even handled a Canon RF and I will need a camera that will work for my eyes. I wear bi-focals and am 55 yrs. old. So I may be leaning to the Canon 7 or P, but I still think I will end up with a Leica or Barnack style Canon like the IIF2. I like them for their compact size and style and the look and feel of the pictures they produce such as those you have posted from your shoots.

So, thanks for the reply. I really can't afford a show camera at this point. It sounds like the sale of your 1946 Leica would be a deal I could handle, so I keep my eyes open. Good luck with your projects and keep up the good work!

Regards, Steve
 
radiocemetery said:
Tom,
I am just beginning to do homework on the Leicas and other Barnack style cameras. I bought a lens from David Murphy and mentioned to him that I was looking at a Zorki as a user and a "to learn on camera". He suggested that I consider a Canon RF instead. So I read up on the Canons and have been sniped numerous times on that auction site trying to get one. That doesn't really bother me as these cameras seem to come up regularly.

My problem is that I have never even handled a Canon RF and I will need a camera that will work for my eyes. I wear bi-focals and am 55 yrs. old. So I may be leaning to the Canon 7 or P, but I still think I will end up with a Leica or Barnack style Canon like the IIF2. I like them for their compact size and style and the look and feel of the pictures they produce such as those you have posted from your shoots.

So, thanks for the reply. I really can't afford a show camera at this point. It sounds like the sale of your 1946 Leica would be a deal I could handle, so I keep my eyes open. Good luck with your projects and keep up the good work!

Regards, Steve
Click to expand...

Yes, the IIF2 is really a collector camera....the LAST and the BEST of the "Knob top" Canon Leica Copies

The IIF or IVSB2 is almost the same thing and you get the super quality shooting enjoyment and experience for under $250 sometimes, the f1.8 50mm Canon is a great lens and was standard on most early and mid 50`s Canon RF`s

And a postwar Leica IIIC is still the best way to go when you are breaking into the vintage Leica scene, watch out for bad pitted and peeling chrome and sometimes vulcanite and shutter damage, but still there`s lot`s of 1946/47 IIIC`s out there coming out of ex- US Army Officers estates enough to fill a wheel barrow up with.........

Just push it towards my garden 😀

Take care and good searching!

Tom
 
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I was recently looking at a somewhat earlier wartime IIIc that has a metal plate fixed to the bottom inside surface of the chamber, visible with the lens removed. Never noticed this on any other Leica, including my IIIc models. Leica Tom's does not look like it has one, either. Was this plate present in some early IIIc production?

Nice camera, Tom! BTW, I recently had two IIIc cameras overhauled by John Maddox. One needed a shutter curtain. Great work and great price! Oh--Have you ruled out a Crocodile leather?
 
Rob-F said:
I was recently looking at a somewhat earlier wartime IIIc that has a metal plate fixed to the bottom inside surface of the chamber, visible with the lens removed. Never noticed this on any other Leica, including my IIIc models. Leica Tom's does not look like it has one, either. Was this plate present in some early IIIc production?

Nice camera, Tom! BTW, I recently had two IIIc cameras overhauled by John Maddox. One needed a shutter curtain. Great work and great price! Oh--Have you ruled out a Crocodile leather?
Click to expand...

Rob,

Humm metal plate in the shutter chamber? , is it part of a hookup for the rare Mooly C motor maybe?
(Can you get photos?)

I`m going with an imitation black vevant material on #3974xx from Camera Leather

I really can`t afford the $200+ CRR Luton UK vulcanite, I don`t have rich girlfriend who`d pay for it and I really don`t have a spare $250 laying around, and I don`t think I`d use it for vulcanite recovering anyway
(I`D BUY ANOTHER HALF RACE CAMERA)
*someday I`ll find a decent 1946' "Flat Top" Body shell "parts camera" with good vulcanite and just make a swap out*

I decided to remain as true to original as possible afterall, #3974xx and #3972xx are going to see the "doctor" soon, I`m sure 2xx will be an easy fix, with some TLC and adjustments she`s back to shooting and showing off camera, but 4xx is going to need some work on that shutter curtain, maybe a patch will take? If not then it`s off to Youxin Ye for whole new curtains, I`ll have (3) great poswar "stepper" rewinds to work with

*I`m adding a #392xxx series camera to my stable soon as well*

(#3974xx will be the main working LTM for the PinUp`s along with my trusty and fun Canon IIF2)

Tom

ps: Untill I can find a "Grey" IIIC K for a full restoration, then I`d consider doing the CRR vulcanite and I`m only sending the shell to England to do, not the whole camera......... the shipping, import taxes and duties are way too expensive to make that something I want to repeat too often in my life
 
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Reedited: I`m still looking for other clean camera`s in the #391xxx, 394xxx, 395xxx and 396xxx serial number ranges then I`ll have versions of all the postwar 1945/46 Leica IIIC`s made to fill in all the gaps and finish some research that`s I`m doing together for the planned Leica book

Tom
 
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