mickallen
Established
I am after purchasing my first Rangefinder, but not sure which way to go, a new Voigtlander Bessa R or save a little longer for a secondhand Leica M.
What would you all recommend?
What would you all recommend?
Jason Sprenger
Well-known
My recommendation is try before you buy if possible.
Otherwise, presuming the camera is for photography, go with a Bessa R2a. With auto exposure, shutter sync at 1/125th, and conventional film loading, the Bessa is a more capable camera. The Leica will have the advantage of its baselength, tactile experience and potential resale value. Of course, what factors are important for capturing images varies with the individual.
For lenses, going with a Zeiss Planar 50/2 and/or a Voigtlander 35/2.5 offers top level performance.
Otherwise, presuming the camera is for photography, go with a Bessa R2a. With auto exposure, shutter sync at 1/125th, and conventional film loading, the Bessa is a more capable camera. The Leica will have the advantage of its baselength, tactile experience and potential resale value. Of course, what factors are important for capturing images varies with the individual.
For lenses, going with a Zeiss Planar 50/2 and/or a Voigtlander 35/2.5 offers top level performance.
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sauerwald
Member
I went through a similar questioning myself just recently. Most of my photography is in LF, but I wanted a small camera that I could carry with me when I was travelling for other than photographic purposes.
I ended up getting the Bessa R2M - I like the internal meter, and I find it easy to focus and use. I have two lenses - a 50mm collapsable one, and a 35mm f1.4 - I find that I use the 35mm lens far more than the 50.
I have been relatively happy with my choice, although I did have one repair required on the Bessa, which surprised me.
I am strongly considering getting one of the really wide CV lenses (15mm?) to play with.
With the rangefinder, as with other cameras, I look at the body as one of the least important parts of the equation. Save your money to buy the lenses that you want, and then find a body to hold them.
I ended up getting the Bessa R2M - I like the internal meter, and I find it easy to focus and use. I have two lenses - a 50mm collapsable one, and a 35mm f1.4 - I find that I use the 35mm lens far more than the 50.
I have been relatively happy with my choice, although I did have one repair required on the Bessa, which surprised me.
I am strongly considering getting one of the really wide CV lenses (15mm?) to play with.
With the rangefinder, as with other cameras, I look at the body as one of the least important parts of the equation. Save your money to buy the lenses that you want, and then find a body to hold them.
"...the Bessa is a more capable camera."
strongly disagree!
have owned two bessas, as well as two leicas, and even the little cl is a more capable camera than the bessas. well, in my hands i must add.
...and i probably should admit that i'm a snob too...
strongly disagree!
have owned two bessas, as well as two leicas, and even the little cl is a more capable camera than the bessas. well, in my hands i must add.
...and i probably should admit that i'm a snob too...
mickallen
Established
Thanks apeture64, or do you think I should save a little longer for an M4 or M5? or will the M2 be good enough?
Yammerman
Well-known
I like my R2a but the shutter is a clunk compared with my lovely M2.
Prosaic
Well-known
That sums it up:
This is not your fathers Oldsmobile, nor is it an M series Leica. Don't get me wrong. The Bessa is quite a decent little camera. Quality of materials is adequate and construction appears competent. (...) Just understand that this isn't a camera that you're going to sit and fondle on a cold winter's night because of its precision. Just a nice little picture taking machine.
From: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/bessa-t.shtml
bidnez
Established
M
M
You have plenty of good advice already. Bessas are cheap, good cameras (they can also be bought used ...
) And Cosina Voigtlander have some great glass on offer. I have only CV, Canon and Zeiss glass for my M´s.
If you want to use fast lenses - say; faster than f2 or maybe even f2,5(??) - I´d buy a used M. M4-2 and M4-P in user condition can be had at reasonable prices, as can M2´s and 3´s. These will be able to focus far more accurately with faster lenses. And that´s a fact.
M
You have plenty of good advice already. Bessas are cheap, good cameras (they can also be bought used ...
) And Cosina Voigtlander have some great glass on offer. I have only CV, Canon and Zeiss glass for my M´s. If you want to use fast lenses - say; faster than f2 or maybe even f2,5(??) - I´d buy a used M. M4-2 and M4-P in user condition can be had at reasonable prices, as can M2´s and 3´s. These will be able to focus far more accurately with faster lenses. And that´s a fact.
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Hiyawaan
Particular Individual
Are you set on an interchangeable lens camera? Might I suggest a Canonet or an Olympus sp to see it you like RF'S. They have great lenses and are cheap as chips.
funkaoshi
Well-known
If you want an M, then keep saving. I bought an R2A, and while it's a nice camera, it really just left me wanting an M even more.
petebown
Established
Try to find a dealer that has both so you can handle both cameras and compare them for yourself.
Having used both an R2A and an M3 and knowing the difference in value, I can say my head (and wife) said keep the R2A but my heart wanted to keep the M3.
Don't forget that all Leicas prior to the M5 have no built in light meter.
Having used both an R2A and an M3 and knowing the difference in value, I can say my head (and wife) said keep the R2A but my heart wanted to keep the M3.
Don't forget that all Leicas prior to the M5 have no built in light meter.
hiromu
Established
Bessa does the job if you just want to take pictures. But if, like me, you like the feel of the camera such as winding, releasing, and so on, then Leica does it excellently. I like the feel of my Leica better than Bessa.
I think used M2 can be had for the same amount of money as a new Bessa... No meter on M2, but it's got smoother operation... You will know once you handle both...
Hiromu
I think used M2 can be had for the same amount of money as a new Bessa... No meter on M2, but it's got smoother operation... You will know once you handle both...
Hiromu
mickallen
Established
The consensus here seems to be with a Leica.
So even though an M2 might be 40-50 years old, it is a better choice than a new Bessa!! How can that be?
So even though an M2 might be 40-50 years old, it is a better choice than a new Bessa!! How can that be?
nico
Well-known
Just my experience but, if you're looking for your first rf camera to see if you like the system then go for a cheap used Bessa R (even if it's screwmount there are plenty of good lenses to chose among) which is a very good camera with a great finder and a in-built meter; once you understood if you like shooting with a rf camera you can save for a leica M camera ...
Have fun,
Have fun,
MCTuomey
Veteran
the problem is that you can't decide well without trying them and you can't try them without deciding ...
buy one or the other. try it. sell it if it doesn't stir your soul to get out and shoot. buy the other and repeat until you find what really works for you.
enjoy the process, above all.
buy one or the other. try it. sell it if it doesn't stir your soul to get out and shoot. buy the other and repeat until you find what really works for you.
enjoy the process, above all.
BillBingham2
Registered User
MA,
A lot depends upon what you want to photograph (where you are going) and where you are coming from. The Bessa has a GREAT viewfinder, bright and clean. It has a built in meter which is handy for many people. Leica Ms are rock solid, take bumps and keep on ticking. Will remain very repairable for many years. The both feel very different in your hands, but both (at least IMHO) feel good. I have to admit I like the Bessa feel with the winder attached much better than the plain Bessa.
The hand built quality of a Leica M2/3/4/4-2/4-P/5/6/MP are second to none. You are paying for fit, finish and robustness.
With the economy in the tank, prices on used Leicas are much lower than say two years ago. New and used Bessa are hovering around the same place they were at that time. This is not because they are better, just priced lower and many options still available new.
Please remember you need to think about what lens to start with. There are many great options you can find new today (CV, Leica, ZI) and even more classic used (Nikon, Canon, etc.).
There are many other great Rangefinders out there beyond just Leica and Bessa. I LOVE my Nikon RF, sold off all my Leicas and Bessas to keep her. Canon has some world class classics (e.g. Canon P) and there are others.
There are great M2s and M3s out there at great prices, but do you want/need a built in light meter. You can get this in a Leica (M5/6/7) for a bit more money. I love working with an external meter so the fact that my camera does not have a built in meter is not a show stopper.
I've learned that for me Nikkors and CVs give me a perfect blend and a great look. Each lens has a unique signature. You might like ZI glass or all CV.
Starting with a Bessa and a 35mm CV lens (2.5, 1.4, 1.2) will not serve you wrong.
It's hard to recommend what is best without a lot more info.
Either way you will not go wrong.
B2 (;->
A lot depends upon what you want to photograph (where you are going) and where you are coming from. The Bessa has a GREAT viewfinder, bright and clean. It has a built in meter which is handy for many people. Leica Ms are rock solid, take bumps and keep on ticking. Will remain very repairable for many years. The both feel very different in your hands, but both (at least IMHO) feel good. I have to admit I like the Bessa feel with the winder attached much better than the plain Bessa.
The hand built quality of a Leica M2/3/4/4-2/4-P/5/6/MP are second to none. You are paying for fit, finish and robustness.
With the economy in the tank, prices on used Leicas are much lower than say two years ago. New and used Bessa are hovering around the same place they were at that time. This is not because they are better, just priced lower and many options still available new.
Please remember you need to think about what lens to start with. There are many great options you can find new today (CV, Leica, ZI) and even more classic used (Nikon, Canon, etc.).
There are many other great Rangefinders out there beyond just Leica and Bessa. I LOVE my Nikon RF, sold off all my Leicas and Bessas to keep her. Canon has some world class classics (e.g. Canon P) and there are others.
There are great M2s and M3s out there at great prices, but do you want/need a built in light meter. You can get this in a Leica (M5/6/7) for a bit more money. I love working with an external meter so the fact that my camera does not have a built in meter is not a show stopper.
I've learned that for me Nikkors and CVs give me a perfect blend and a great look. Each lens has a unique signature. You might like ZI glass or all CV.
Starting with a Bessa and a 35mm CV lens (2.5, 1.4, 1.2) will not serve you wrong.
It's hard to recommend what is best without a lot more info.
Either way you will not go wrong.
B2 (;->
kshapero
South Florida Man
I would make a pilgrimage to Photovillage in NYC and touch and feel the whole lot. My main squeeze is the Zeiss ikon. or you could order from Adorama and keep returning the units to find one you like. KEH also allows that. Good Luck.
hiromu
Established
It depends on what you like. If you like to get good result (pictures), and nothing else, buy a new Bessa. It will work very well.
But if you are like me and enjoy the process of taking pictures, such as holding the camera, releasing the shutter, winding the film, re-winding it,,,, then save up for Leica. There is difference between Bessa and Leica for those things.
Again, resulting images are mostly depending on what lens you use. But the process of taking picture,,, only if you enjoy those things...
Hiromu
But if you are like me and enjoy the process of taking pictures, such as holding the camera, releasing the shutter, winding the film, re-winding it,,,, then save up for Leica. There is difference between Bessa and Leica for those things.
Again, resulting images are mostly depending on what lens you use. But the process of taking picture,,, only if you enjoy those things...
Hiromu
jalLee2001
jallee55
I would recommend the Bessa, I just bought one as a back up my M7 (which crapped out on a trip to Thailand). If you do any traveling, you will want to take a backup body anyways.
They are pretty cheap. The copies that I am finding of the M 4's are in rough shape. In addition, it is slightly smaller than the M7 so it seems to fit better with a smaller lenses.
At the end of the day, get started collecting the glass that you want and just get a camera body.
They are pretty cheap. The copies that I am finding of the M 4's are in rough shape. In addition, it is slightly smaller than the M7 so it seems to fit better with a smaller lenses.
At the end of the day, get started collecting the glass that you want and just get a camera body.
N
nihraguk
Guest
I'd recommend starting with the Bessa. It is a good introduction to the rangefinder system. If you like it, you can always buy a Leica later, and keep the Bessa as a backup body. If you choose to buy an M2 or M3, the Bessa will be useful as a backup body with a meter.
All the lenses you buy for the Bessa will probably be compatible with the Leica bodies, with the help of a simple LTM-to-M mount adapter.
I personally started with a Bessa R, sold it and upgraded to a R3A, and am now in the process of getting together the cash for a Leica M2. The collection of lenses I've built up in the process will all be usable on the M2 thanks to the LTM-M adapter; they include CV LTM as well as M mount lenses.
All the lenses you buy for the Bessa will probably be compatible with the Leica bodies, with the help of a simple LTM-to-M mount adapter.
I personally started with a Bessa R, sold it and upgraded to a R3A, and am now in the process of getting together the cash for a Leica M2. The collection of lenses I've built up in the process will all be usable on the M2 thanks to the LTM-M adapter; they include CV LTM as well as M mount lenses.