Mirrorless Full Frame an option some day?

[eleskin]

In my research for affordable digital backup cameras that can take M mount lenses, I beleive a full frame camera that can use Leica M lenses would be a very nice option as a backup or even something to use when one would want another type of viewing system for a specific type of photography. I am well aware of the problems these cameras would have with M mount wide lenses. With a 50mm and above, this camera should be fine, and would be fun to use with lenses such as the Noctilux, etc,,. As a backup, one could get Leica R wides and then use the M Mount for 50mm and above. This would give the digital M photographer economical backup options as well as non rangefinder capabilities for their M lenses when needed. Not everyone can buy 2 M Digitals (economics) and this would be simple in terms of an affordable second option. So the question here is which camera companies are thinking about expanding their smaller cameras that can take M lenses to full frame?

 

[sevo]

If Red follow up on their promises regarding very large size sensors, something a fair deal beyond FF EVIL will happen in high budget digital medium format rather sooner than later - and from there it is only a matter of time when tiny and medium format EVIL meet half way between to cover FF...

 

[Paul T.]

Given that electronic viewfinders will plummet in price, meaning that EVIL cameras are cheaper to produce than SLR, one would think that the eventual appearance of 'full-frame' EVF cameras is a certainty.

 

[charjohncarter]

Given that electronic viewfinders will plummet in price, meaning that EVIL cameras are cheaper to produce than SLR, one would think that the eventual appearance of 'full-frame' EVF cameras is a certainty.

I totally agree, this will be the second wave for digital. Both APS and FF Evils will be everywhere.

 

[ashrafazlan]

The rumored Nikon EVIL might be a step in the right direction. Was hoping for a reveal at PMA, but man was that event disappointing.

 

[payasam]

How about "'cameras that can take M mount lenses' among lenses with a variety of mounts?"

 

[Finder]

I am not sure if the mirrorless manufactures would go to larger sensors or just continue to improve the smaller sensors they use. After all, the market for these cameras are not for the "professional"--whatever that really means. Folks that want to put M-Mount glass on these cameras are not a large enough customer base for manufacturers. They would have already developed a line of optics for the smaller format and then to switch to a larger format would not make economic sense as they would need to bring out a new lens line--very expensive even if they use existing optics.

Naturally, predicting is hard, especially about the future.

 

[Paul T.]

It's worth pointing out that full-frame cameras are not likely to work well with M-mount lenses, for all the reasons we've been through. The 4/3 don't work too well, and they of course crop out all the edges of the frame. Even so, if other manufacturers produce reasonably compact lenses, this could be a big growth sector.

Personally, I'd be happy wiht a fixed lens system, with an optical VF, that performed like my trusty Hexar AF. In fact, even something that works as well as an Olympus Mju/Stylus would be a start.

 

[eleskin]

Esentislly a universal body that a photographer can use any lens from any manufacturer. The photographer would be free to select any lens he pleases based on the effect desired, similar to a painter using certain brushes, no longer constrained to one brand, free to expand and create forever!

 

[ashrafazlan]

It's worth pointing out that full-frame cameras are not likely to work well with M-mount lenses, for all the reasons we've been through. The 4/3 don't work too well, and they of course crop out all the edges of the frame. Even so, if other manufacturers produce reasonably compact lenses, this could be a big growth sector.

Personally, I'd be happy wiht a fixed lens system, with an optical VF, that performed like my trusty Hexar AF. In fact, even something that works as well as an Olympus Mju/Stylus would be a start.

A camera like that would be amazing to have. Sigma and Ricoh did a great job at getting the ball rolling, lets hope their next iteration of cameras include OVF's

 

[ethics_gradient]

I am not sure if the mirrorless manufactures would go to larger sensors or just continue to improve the smaller sensors they use. After all, the market for these cameras are not for the "professional"--whatever that really means. Folks that want to put M-Mount glass on these cameras are not a large enough customer base for manufacturers. They would have already developed a line of optics for the smaller format and then to switch to a larger format would not make economic sense as they would need to bring out a new lens line--very expensive even if they use existing optics.

You underestimate the number of pros who would love to have a discreet, take-anywhere camera capable of, if not matching, at least approaching the quality of their pro DSLR's.

Existing optics could be used with adapters (and even retain autofocus) if the manufacturer chooses. The register distance on a mirrorless camera is small enough to permit most lenses to be mounted with no problem.

 

[eleskin]

I am one of those pros who love descrete small take anywhere cameras, and to have this universal camera would be a Godsend to anyone who has huge dslr's as well as those of us who own digital M,s. For $1,500-$2000 it would sell like hotcakes. It would appeal to all types of camera users. It would also add value to many types of lenses new and old alike. A win win for who decides to make it.

 

[payasam]

Few mount adapters are perfect and most are expensive. Canon and Nikon have the largest number of old lenses in circulation, but they may not want to make a body like this because it is in their interest to sell more new lenses.

 

[Finder]

You underestimate the number of pros who would love to have a discreet, take-anywhere camera capable of, if not matching, at least approaching the quality of their pro DSLR's.

Existing optics could be used with adapters (and even retain autofocus) if the manufacturer chooses. The register distance on a mirrorless camera is small enough to permit most lenses to be mounted with no problem.

So what would be wrong with the Sony APS-C version? That is a DSLR sensor.

Well, why would a manufacture just make camera centered around an adapter for their SLR lenses? Leica could have just used the R lenses in M-mounts. But then you are back to big cameras again.

Also, I don't think you understand the economics. Why would a manufacture go to all that expense to make a body so other manufacturers could sell lenses for it?

I don't think I would underestimate the number of pros that would like a nice small camera. There are many cameras designed for those folks in the past. Most have lost money or only existed in an economic time that could support a business model that could support such a camera. But I am not sure why you don't buy a digital Leica rangefinder? That is a mirrorless camera.

 

[Kevin]

Canon will be the first to make a full-frame EVIL camera with new lenses and adapters for both its FD/FL and EF lens lines.

My prediction is that it will be announced this year or next.

 

[jaapv]

It sounds a lot like Leica's projected " R Solution". But that will certainly not be cheap...

 

[aizan]

a mirrorless full frame r-solution would appeal to me more than the m9, personally. i think aps-c and 4/3 makes more sense for rangefinder-like cameras.

 

[JoeV]

It's worth pointing out that full-frame cameras are not likely to work well with M-mount lenses, for all the reasons we've been through. The 4/3 don't work too well, and they of course crop out all the edges of the frame. Even so, if other manufacturers produce reasonably compact lenses, this could be a big growth sector....

I'm assuming you're ignoring the M9 from this category because it isn't "live view", correct? I understand its performance is pretty good, albeit by using micro lenses and some image correction in camera firmware. Being a CCD it can't do live view as well as CMOS sensors, but from an optical perspective (no pun intended) it seems that Leica have managed a full-frame M-mount camera with excellent performance.

With a similar micro-lens chip I think that u4/3 could do better; but that's not part of the business model of the format's participating manufacturers, since they're not making money by catering to legacy lens users.

~Joe

 

[eleskin]

I have the original M8. What I am interested in is a lower cost backup that will take my M lenses and as a bonus, offer me another way (sometimes the evf would be better) to focus my lenses when I want it (I would like it sometimes for my Noctilux). I also want it to give me raw files decent enough for 17"x22" prints. It would also allow more experimentation with many other lenses by a vast number of different manufacturers, hence breathing new life and value to many of the lenses made for almost 100 years!!! That would be full of fun and discovery (re-discovery?).

 

[eleskin]

Legacy lenses would go up in value, and manufacturers would offer lenses in a package for the average customer. Many people do not have the time or knowledge to experiment like many of us on this forum. Certain auto features would be made possible with the manufacurers matched lenses. I do not think the legacy users would be that threatening to them. The legacy users however would add even more revenue in that they would be just one segment of the total volume of sale. So here it does make good business sence for a very versatile and expandabe platform. Look at view cameras. Universal but large format. You can use any large format lens. Why not in the smaller full frame format? Large format comes in many shapes and sizes and each is sold based on features and price. As far as I know they are still selling and the fact that there is a universal nature to the.l format is not a bad business model!