M4-2 Light Leak

[Nokton48]

I'm getting an intermittent lightleak in my M4-2 body. When viewing the film, the lightleak occurs always in the same place , along the extreme right side lower edge, approx 2mm's from the film bottom. It's rounded at the bottom, flaring outwards, varying in intensity somewhat, depending on exposure. A big blob of lightleak, always making the same pattern. Often it creates a shadow from the film perforations, on the unexposed film edges.

Is this a DIY fix, or do I need to send it out for adjustment? Is it a lightshield problem, or something with the shutter? What's going on?

 

[david.elliott]

Sample photo might help with the diagnosis.

 

[Nokton48]

This is not a good scan but you can see the leaking.

This is not a good scan but you can see the leaking.

Go easy on me, this is the first time I've hooked up a scanner 🙂 (Minolta Dimage Scan Dual II).

You can see the lightleak on both sides, it leaked from the previous frame onto this one. The lightleak is the "blooming" you see on the right lower frame. It's only in the right side of the frame, this one is an extreme example.

 

[Nokton48]

Here's another one (from today)

Here's another one (from today)

Light leak to the lower right.

 

[Nokton48]

I had one on my M4. It occurred on one frame with every other roll, but then the frequency picked up to the point that it was on 5-6 shots on EVER roll. I eventaully sent the camera to Sherry Krauter. It turned out the curtain was bunching up on the rail and it was starting to fail. She said it was simply from age and use.

Thanks.
That's what I suspected.
Off to Sherry it will go.

 

[Dwig]

...The lightleak is the "blooming" you see on the right lower frame. It's only in the right side of the frame, this one is an extreme example.

It would be better if we could see a scan of the whole section of film, sprocket area and all.

Keep in mind that the light leak is in the lower right of the image. That means that it is in the upper left of the negative, when viewing the neg from the base side.

If the light is coming through the back into the film chamber the sprocket area will also be fogged. If this is the case, one of the prime suspects is the fit of the back panel in its upper left hinge area. If the fogging stops precisely at the edge of the image then its coming in through the shutter, possibly a pinhole in the shutter curtain.

 

[Nokton48]

Hi Dwig,

Yes I am getting shadows of the perforations as well, as well as leaking outside the film gate area, sometimes bigtime. I remember this problem from previous threads here, I think the back may be light leaking, on the upper left edge. I left the camera in the sun, with the back facing directly for a bit, on the car seat, while out shooting Sunday. Got a huge "bloom" on those couple of frames. I think the M back is leaking.

OK, so I see a wide velvet strip across the top and bottom, and two thin velvet strips along each vertical edge, of the M4-2 film back. If I strip the velvet off, and clean it well, I could apply foam strips I have, and use with other cameras. Is this a good idea, or should I ask DAG for some of his Leitz velvet lighttrapping? I've even used black yarn, and Elmers Glueall, on other types of cameras in the past.

Eyeballing the shutter, I don't see anything leaking. And it's been to see Don Goldberg twice so far this year, I can't believe he would send it back, if the problem was in the shutter. He'd have told me about it.

This is something I can easily fix myself, I'm thinking.

 

[Nokton48]

I emailed Don Goldberg, he says he's NEVER EVER heard of a lightleak in an M4-2 through the rear door. He suggested that the lightshields may need replacing, to the newer ones in the M6. I had previously decided to remove the lighttrapping and redo it, so he is sending me replacement lighttraps. What a nice guy! Also suggested taping the rear door with black electrical tape and seeing if I still get a leak.

While I am awaiting my package from DAG, I have loaded a fresh roll of factory loaded Ilford HP-5+ and have electrical-taped the rear door. Had hoped for a sunny-16 day, it's overcast and drizzly here. Will shoot half the roll today, then wait for sunny-16 to do further light leak tests. Will change lenses frequently, in case the body is leaking from the inside front.

Also since I shoot bulk-loaded film (mostly Eastman XX shortends) it's also possible I might have a light-streaked shortend? This factory-loaded Hp-5+ will be a good test, it's definately good film.

 

[dll927]

I was going to suggest that, at least as a temporary measure, you could put some black elelctrician's tape over the door. But that's an abominable way to treat a Leica, so some repair would seem to be in order.

And to think that the screw-mount Leicas didn't even have that door!!

 

[Nokton48]

Well Thanks Folks for your input. I've racked off about half the roll of HP5+ today, about 1/60 and 1/30 at F8, the point is to see if I'm still getting -this effect- with prepackaged film. If that is the case (will run the film this weekend) then I will reinstall the lighttrapping, thanks to DAG, and then the camera will be set aside for awhile.

It will go to Don or Sherry if this cannot be resolved, along with some Vue-All pages, examples of the fogging. Of course this can be resolved, but what a PITA. That's why I have three M Leicas.

 

[payasam]

With B&W film there's no way to see the colour of the leak.

 

[Nokton48]

I'd recommend Sherry.

Yeah I've had Sherry do three Leitz lenses for me, and her work has been fabulous. I like Don's work, but he gets backed up, and it's tough to get through to him. This M4-2 has been twice to him within the last year, once to be put back together properly, and then again, for rangefinder calibration (partially my fault), and machining of the catch-lock mechanism, as my 85mm F1.5 Canon would not stay locked-on properly. Getting it back the last time was a very aggravating experience, he's just so busy!

Will shoot the rest of this roll, when the sun comes back out. Lenses I use alot with the body have been, the Canon 19mm F3.5 and the 35mm Summaron. I get the same fogging, in mutliple rolls, with both lenses.

I think I will eventually send it to Sherry, that should be alot quicker trip.

 

[Nokton48]

OK I have finished the factory-loaded roll of HP-5 (finally!) in M-42. That test should rule-out bad film. DAG said he didn't have any lighttrapping materials (bummer!) so I ordered various types of velvet ribbon on Ebay. One has arrived so far.

Yesterday I received a package from DAG, four strips of original Leitz light trapping, he must have ordered it! Very nice of him and no charge, and enough to do across the top (under the door hinge) that is where it was bunched-up and looked to me like it could have leaked to me. So I removed the old material. Don suggested Contact Cement for reapplying, that is what I was going to try, anyway. I will use foam trapping on the sides and bottom, that's not going to be a problem at all. The lightrap uder the door hinge takes a fair amount of abuse, as the door goes up and down IMO, and based on M4-2's condition. Getting the right type of material back in there was -going- to be an issue. Thank You DAG! 🙂

It's still possible I could have lightstruck film cartridges (bulk-loaded Kodak Snap Caps of XX) so I will cross my fingers, when I make this next film run.

 

[SolaresLarrave]

So... how did that test go? Did you replace the seals?

I have an M4-2 myself, and would like to know about your test. Mine was 3/4 CLAed by Don, but sometimes I wonder if I should not have been so economical... In any event, please, report about your HP5 test. Thanks in advance! 🙂

 

[Nokton48]

Hi Francisco,
I ran four rolls of film yesterday, two of the rolls were shot with M4-2. The factory-loaded HP-5+, and a bulk-loaded roll of real Tri-X. Both rolls have the light streaks, so the camera is going to Sherry Krauter, I think. DAG did sent light trapping material (no charge) and I will reinstall it later, in the top section (underneath the hinge for the back). I will use foam from Aki in Japan for the sides, and bottom, of the light trap. Don recommended contact cement to install the Leitz lighttrapping, I'm on the way to Lowes to pick up some fresh stuff. And a few other camera repair items.

I don't think the problem is with the shutter. It appears that something from underneath is causing the lightleak. Also, it isn't in all the frames, it's here and there, and in varying amounts. Where I stood the camera out in the sun (with lens on) there are -HUGE- lightleaks. Yet I don't see anything inside the mirror box, or underneath, that would cause a leak. And TomA's Rapidwinder does not leak light, that's not an issue.

I'll send a few developed test rolls to Sherry, along with the camera. I'm sure she can find the problem.
Maybe it won't even be that expensive.

 

[Nokton48]

I called Sherry Krauter today, and after alot of explaining, she agreed to look at M4-2. She says that there are lightseals in the camera that you cannot see. So I'm confident she will figure out the problem, especially after she looks at the developed rolls of film.

 

[Nokton48]

M4-2, Tri-X and HP5 negatives have been shipped to Sherry Krauter.

 

[Nokton48]

Sherry left me a voicemail Saturday night, I was out. Called Sunday morning and had a very long delightful conversation. What a nice lady to deal with! She is confident that she has addressed the issues with this camera, but she tells me, that the in her opinion, the M4-2 should not even have the Leica name on it! But, I tell her, that is exactly why I want it, to make it work for me. It's the camera that I lusted after twenty five years ago. The light leak problem I think it a combo of interior light shields, and she replaced the curtains.

So after talking with me, she's opening it back up once again, to finally resolve the issues with the rangefinder. The cam is bent, she's going to replace it, at no extra charge.

NOW THAT IS GOOD CUSTOMER SERVICE!! Hooray for Sherry!

 

[Nokton48]

Payment sent to Sherry today, so M4-2 should be back in my hands sometime next week. I really do enjoy alternating between my three Leica M bodies. Sherry told me that she dosen't do test shooting with film, since I don't use the camera in the same way that she would. Best to test it myself, since I'm the one that'll be using it. I agree.

I've missed M4-2.

 

[ItsReallyDarren]

Glad to hear the camera is on its way back, hopefully with the light leaks gone.