furcafe
Veteran
Another vote for the M3 if you don't need the built-in meter. Despite the current Leica marketing literature, I doubt an MP is significantly better made than an M3 &, factoring in the meter, certainly not $3K+ better. The M3 VF has a slight blue tint, but in real world use I haven't found it to be dimmer than a modern Leica M VF.
rogerzilla
Well-known
Two months ago I paid 500 GBP at an authorised Leica dealer for one with minor bright marks and a little tiny piece of missing vulcanite (the latter can now be replaced economically with hot-moulded modern "vulcanite" by CRR in the UK, where I live). It's still a good looking camera with no VF prism separation. So they're not actually very expensive.
Ade-oh
Well-known
I bought a new a la carte MP but got quite a lot discounted from the price (in total about 15%) by negotiation with the 'authorised' Leica dealer who handled the process. Worth trying.
maddoc
... likes film again.
With the actual situation in Japan, where many if not most of the Leica MP cameras were sold so far, prices might actually go down in near future for new MP cameras.
loquax ludens
Well-known
I hear tell that Leica only raises prices. I'm not holding out hope that a new MP will get cheaper in the future.
If I go the M3 route, I'd rather pay a little more for one that is in top condition. A thing that concerns me about the M3 is the Canadian balsam glue deterioration problem. I understand repair (regluing) is possible, but does it return the prism to like new condition? What does that sort of repair cost?
If I go the M3 route, I'd rather pay a little more for one that is in top condition. A thing that concerns me about the M3 is the Canadian balsam glue deterioration problem. I understand repair (regluing) is possible, but does it return the prism to like new condition? What does that sort of repair cost?
kshapero
South Florida Man
Buy one from DAG or Sherry and all of that will taken care of.
loquax ludens
Well-known
That's a good idea. I notice Youxin Ye sells them too.
M3 vs MP - still weighing pros and cons. The savings in price of an M3 versus a good used MP would pay for a top notch lens.
M3 vs MP - still weighing pros and cons. The savings in price of an M3 versus a good used MP would pay for a top notch lens.
nlubis
Well-known
I just phoned Sherry Krauter (unrelated to this thread), and we got to talk about M7s and MPs. Suffice to say she has some interesting opinions. Give her a call, a different point of view.
mfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
Why limit yourself? Or pay more? My DS M3 is a great camera. Nothing like collector grade but a good user, not dinged up, and quite an attractive camera (as M3s seem to be
) both to use and to look at. Oh, and I think I prefer the DS action. I don't use it for lenses shorter than 50mm, though. (I have other cameras for that.) If that would limit you then an M3 probably isn't ideal. Buy something else first, then buy an M3. Everybody should have an M3
....Mike
steveyork
Well-known
I agree. I have had MPs, with the 85x/72x/58x VFs and I learned that I preferred the M2/4 or M3. Learning to shoot with a hand held meter is simple and it tends to promote a little more creative thinking in your DoF/Exposure decisions. Eventually you will even use Sunny 16 and really fly by the seat of your pants. I found the LEDs in a MP VF to be very lame (serious red flare) when shooting in low light, so much so I would remove the battery. Thus my preference for M2/M3/M4s. Nothing better made and nothing extraneous or distracting on those babies
What's a good hand held meter? My voigtlander popped off into the salt water and the new gossen didn't work.
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steveyork
Well-known
Give us the run down. She has strong opinions. I know she like the SL and M5. I can attest to the SL. Great camera.
Out to Lunch
Ventor
Why would anyone in 2011 buy a meter less camera? The legend, the looks?
Denton
Established
Why MP, not M6?
I've found an 0.85x viewfinder M6 as good as the M3 and, I presume, the MP. I no longer want an MP. Plus I have a meter to boot, if I want to use it.
Denton
I've found an 0.85x viewfinder M6 as good as the M3 and, I presume, the MP. I no longer want an MP. Plus I have a meter to boot, if I want to use it.
Denton
kshapero
South Florida Man
Of course Youxin has a great source.
kshapero
South Florida Man
Why don't you share it with us?
steveyork
Well-known
The more manual the camera the more you have to use your brain. That's the theory, and I believe there's and element of truth there. Of course, you can take good pictures with any camera.
MC JC86
Negative Nancy.
What? Huh?
EDIT: I'll elaborate my confusion. The standard production MP's have meters so I guess you're not referring to them. Also, cameras have been available with built in meters TTL and otherwise for many decades, so I'm not sure why it being 2011 would make it more or less logical to purchase a camera that includes one.
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Out to Lunch
Ventor
... perhaps read my post, again.
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loquax ludens
Well-known
Trying to get caught up here. I really! appreciate all of the advice and commentary that all of you have given me. I thought this was going to be a simple process, but I'm seeing now many more possibilities than I previously considered.
Dallas Texas. By SK, I presume you mean SK Grimes? I've done business with SK in the past, before and after Mr. Grimes passed away. They did some excellent LF lens work for me. Aside from Youxin, DAG, and Sherry, I'm not familiar with the others you mentioned but I appreciate the recommendations. Now I have some more leads to run down. Thank you.
I do use a Sekonic L508 with my LF kit, but it's kind of bulky. I haven't looked at the 308.
Long lenses are not a problem. That's my preference in fact. That's one reason why the .91x viewfinder on the M3 appeals to me.
Having never handled an M3, DS or SS, I can't claim to have a preference. Good user for less money is an appealing idea too. The main thing I worry about on an older M3 is a deteriorating viewfinder or invisible RF patch, but it sounds like buying from a reputable source will go far toward reducing that concern.
The MP is a think of beauty in my eyes. That and the simplicity of the camera and the quality appeal to me. That said, I don't plan to baby any camera I buy. It'll be a user.
Now that I know the M3 was also built to high standards, it's in the running too. I have no doubt, Denton, that I would enjoy any M in good condition. I just think I'd like to stick with MP or M3 for starters. My first M probably won't be my last. You gotta start somewhere right?
I wish I had cash burning a hole in my pocket! Truly, it's not likely I'd buy a new MP, but used with a .85x viewfinder seems to be a bit scarcer than the .72.
loquax ludens, I am not sure where you live, but buying a M3 from SK, DAG or Tony Rose or camera's West...any reputable dealer, it will be backed with a return guarantee. If your M3 has has been serviced by Sherry or Kindermann or DAG, you can be sure it will last for a long time. Either way, it will come to you in the condition they described it: so buy an excellent condition M3 and don't look back...except to pick out a great lens
Dallas Texas. By SK, I presume you mean SK Grimes? I've done business with SK in the past, before and after Mr. Grimes passed away. They did some excellent LF lens work for me. Aside from Youxin, DAG, and Sherry, I'm not familiar with the others you mentioned but I appreciate the recommendations. Now I have some more leads to run down. Thank you.
I do use a Sekonic L508 with my LF kit, but it's kind of bulky. I haven't looked at the 308.
Why limit yourself? Or pay more? My DS M3 is a great camera. Nothing like collector grade but a good user, not dinged up, and quite an attractive camera (as M3s seem to be
If that would limit you then an M3 probably isn't ideal. Buy something else first, then buy an M3. Everybody should have an M3
Long lenses are not a problem. That's my preference in fact. That's one reason why the .91x viewfinder on the M3 appeals to me.
Having never handled an M3, DS or SS, I can't claim to have a preference. Good user for less money is an appealing idea too. The main thing I worry about on an older M3 is a deteriorating viewfinder or invisible RF patch, but it sounds like buying from a reputable source will go far toward reducing that concern.
The MP is a think of beauty in my eyes. That and the simplicity of the camera and the quality appeal to me. That said, I don't plan to baby any camera I buy. It'll be a user.
Now that I know the M3 was also built to high standards, it's in the running too. I have no doubt, Denton, that I would enjoy any M in good condition. I just think I'd like to stick with MP or M3 for starters. My first M probably won't be my last. You gotta start somewhere right?
Unless you have a burning desire to buy new, or have the cash burning a hole in your pocket, I see no reason to shell out $5000 to buy a new MP. If you're patient you can get a clean used MP for less than half that, or save yourself another $1,500 on that and buy a used M6. It does the exact same job. Just my 2cents
I wish I had cash burning a hole in my pocket! Truly, it's not likely I'd buy a new MP, but used with a .85x viewfinder seems to be a bit scarcer than the .72.
nlubis
Well-known
Ok, ok.
My M6 TTL is being serviced and also to get the MP upgrades.
We got to talk, and ask about what she thinks of my M6 condition, so she starts to talk about the M6 (TTL) line in general. She let me down easy by saying outright that since the M6, Leitz (back then), made steps to use parts that compared to the older bodies are less in quality and so on. She will talk about this more on a gathering at Pittsburgh (?) this year.
I mentioned my own 'want' of an M7 or MP. She replied back that whenever anybody calls her to buy an MP, she would suggest a 2nd option for them, to get (2) M6 instead and do the MP upgrade. Have the quality/feature from the MP without the price.
The M6 camera 'economic' decisions back then was met with an uproar and hence some quality came back to the M7 and MP. But she still took the opportunity to take a swing at Leica here, something along the line that the bottom line was still driving force even for this high end bodies.
She also mentioned that the M7 "is a accident waiting to happen?", I think I heard her correctly.
And if you're looking to buy an M, this is what her suggestions according to the lines (that I asked about):
- for any M6, bodies that are under the 2 million mark. She prefers the 174-178 batch and her 2nd preference is the 191-198. (Mine is 274xxxx! Hah!)
- for an M2, pick the ones that have the reverse lever
- for M3 sn > 964xxx
- any M4
Underline this was a phone conversation, and I'm not in any way very knowledgeable in all Leica's history. I'm paraphrasing here, and of course I could very well missed some points.
I see it as a Leica repair specialist (work at Leitz) view on quality.
My newly upgraded M6 and M3 (999xxx) will hold me for a while.
My M6 TTL is being serviced and also to get the MP upgrades.
We got to talk, and ask about what she thinks of my M6 condition, so she starts to talk about the M6 (TTL) line in general. She let me down easy
by saying outright that since the M6, Leitz (back then), made steps to use parts that compared to the older bodies are less in quality and so on. She will talk about this more on a gathering at Pittsburgh (?) this year.I mentioned my own 'want' of an M7 or MP. She replied back that whenever anybody calls her to buy an MP, she would suggest a 2nd option for them, to get (2) M6 instead and do the MP upgrade. Have the quality/feature from the MP without the price.
The M6 camera 'economic' decisions back then was met with an uproar and hence some quality came back to the M7 and MP. But she still took the opportunity to take a swing at Leica here, something along the line that the bottom line was still driving force even for this high end bodies.
She also mentioned that the M7 "is a accident waiting to happen?", I think I heard her correctly.
And if you're looking to buy an M, this is what her suggestions according to the lines (that I asked about):
- for any M6, bodies that are under the 2 million mark. She prefers the 174-178 batch and her 2nd preference is the 191-198. (Mine is 274xxxx! Hah!)
- for an M2, pick the ones that have the reverse lever
- for M3 sn > 964xxx
- any M4
Underline this was a phone conversation, and I'm not in any way very knowledgeable in all Leica's history. I'm paraphrasing here, and of course I could very well missed some points.
I see it as a Leica repair specialist (work at Leitz) view on quality.
My newly upgraded M6 and M3 (999xxx) will hold me for a while.