Noobie Question: How To Spot A Fake?

[David.Boettcher]

I am sure this question must have been asked before, but how does one spot a fake Leica LTM? I want to buy a pre-war Leica III but I am worried that as a complete noobie I might get taken in easily.

For instance, ebay item 180675232789 looks pretty genuine to me and if the seller hadn't described it as a copy then I would have been none the wiser. What is it that gives this away as a copy?

What about ebay item 300561555669, I looked at that and it seemed pretty genuine to me, but then again no more so than the first one I mentioned . . .

Is there a checklist of things that are difficult to fake, or is it just a matter of experience? And please, keep any technical terms simple for a beginner, I know my way around a camera, even a range finder with a hand held light meter, but not Leicas.

Thanks for any help!

Regards - David

 

[matt_s]

some tips

some tips

I am no expert (not even close) on spotting fake leica cameras, but some things to keep in mind. Most of the fakes out there are not made as fakes, but have been converted Zorki I or other soviet cameras. Look at photos of the old Zorki cameras and then compare to the Barnack cameras- you will notice some differences, and some things are harder to fake than others.

The finish- Leicas have a specific type of satin-chrome finish that is hard to copy, but not impossible. Not the best indicator.

The top plate: This is where you can spot the differences- look at the cold-shoe at the top of both cameras- Leica finish and fit is much tighter. Most sellers of fake cameras will not bother to manufacture an entire new top plate, so this is something that often sticks out. Look also at the windows around the front viewfinder/rangefinder windows. The metal frames of a Leica are different- again, something that would be difficult to change on a Zorki plate. Note all the sharp corners and angles on a leica top plate, then note the sharp corners and angles on a zorki- there are some differences that start to seem obvious (again, most people will just take the zorki top plate and engrave "leica"- so if you can tell the differences between the top plate shapes you will have a good indicator.

Mostly, just look at a lot of pictures of Leicas (from a reputable site like cameraquest) and then look at a lot of photos of the soviet knock-offs; you can then pretty much tell when someone engraves "leica" on top of a Zorki pretty quickly.

Not a foolproof method, but this way can weed out the obvious fakes pretty quickly. There are other people here who are very knowledgeable on spotting fake black-paint/pre-war/nazi cameras, I do not go near any of these types, so can add nothing. But keep in mind that people will take genuine Leica cameras and re-paint or re-engrave them to make them appear rarer then they actually are.

Good Luck

Matt

 

[archive59]

A quick list of things to look for:-

Genuine Leica will have a ridge at top of viewfinder window whereas on a fake (Fed/Zorki) the window surround flows into the top plate when looked from above.
Genuine Leica has a round rangefinder tip inside the lens mount. Fake has pointed.
Genuine Leica shutter release will not be threaded for a release.
As long as the slow speed selector on the front of the body has not just been stuck on then only a genuine Leica III will have that.
Check the serial number to model. With a lot of fakes they just don't correspond.
There are exceptions to pretty much all of the above but if you are looking for a III rather than a II then you are far less likely to come across a fake.

Hope that helps.

Mark

 

[L David Tomei]

I can offer an opinion based upon collecting and documenting old Leicas for the past decade.

First, 180675232789 is not a genuine Leica. Top plate and engravings on the plate (among other things evident from the photos) are not from Leica. The lens is clearly not a Leica lens. That being said, I have to credit the seller for clearly indicating that the camera is a Russian copy although the header fails to do so. Many sellers don't even do this in spite of their being informed. However, I believe that this practice is less prevalent than it was 10 years ago

Second, 300561555669 appears to be genuine with a serial number corresponding to a IIIa assigned in 1936.

Personally, I don't have much sympathy for those who try to sell fake Leicas. The same goes for fake engravings that may be on otherwise genuine Leica cameras such as the "K" added to the serial number, or fake military engraving, all done to enhance the camera's value and simply cheat the unsuspecting buyer. There's a lot of helpful information on several sites regarding fake Leica cameras.

Good luck!

 

[brainwood]

The most obvious is the cup shaped surround to the shutter release found on both Zorkis and Feds. the Leica shutter release surround is cylindrical in shape. Its very clear when you see them side by side and a dead givaway of a fake

Chris

EDIT -I have had a look at the ebay one you referenced and they have been clever and used a huge soft release to cover this feature.

 

[David.Boettcher]

Matt and Mark,

Thanks, that helps a lot. I was already aware of the fake black-paint/pre-war/nazi cameras having seen a guy with a gold plated one being used as an example of "what not to buy" on the Antiques Roadshow TV show here in the UK. I'm not interested in that kind of stuff anyway, I just want to play with a piece of genuine history and take some pictures the way I used to when I started in photography.

I understand all of Mark's points except the second one, "Genuine Leica has a round rangefinder tip inside the lens mount. Fake has pointed." Would you spell that out more simply for me please Mark?

Thanks for all the help guys"

Regards - David

 

[johannielscom]

Hi OP, I did my best here to explain a bit. This also includes links to shots of the rangefinder coupling (a wheel with Leicas, differently shaped with other brands that were faked into Leicas). Hope it helps!

 

[L David Tomei]

Hi OP, I did my best here to explain a bit. Hope it helps!

A good write up. I'll use your link the next time someone asks me this question.

Of course, there are some famous people who have been taken in by very good fakes. But then, someone pointed out to me that if the fake is so good, then it probably would be worth as much as a real one in the collector world.

Ciao!

 

[johannielscom]

I can offer an opinion based upon collecting and documenting old Leicas for the past decade.

First, 180675232789 is not a genuine Leica. Top plate and engravings on the plate (among other things evident from the photos) are not from Leica. The lens is clearly not a Leica lens. That being said, I have to credit the seller for clearly indicating that the camera is a Russian copy although the header fails to do so. Many sellers don't even do this in spite of their being informed. However, I believe that this practice is less prevalent than it was 10 years ago

Second, 300561555669 appears to be genuine with a serial number corresponding to a IIIa assigned in 1936.

Personally, I don't have much sympathy for those who try to sell fake Leicas. The same goes for fake engravings that may be on otherwise genuine Leica cameras such as the "K" added to the serial number, or fake military engraving, all done to enhance the camera's value and simply cheat the unsuspecting buyer. There's a lot of helpful information on several sites regarding fake Leica cameras.

Good luck!

Somebody just pulled the trigger on that one. I hope it was the OP, that Summar is the cleanest I have seen in a long time! 😱

 

[David.Boettcher]

This is great info guys, thank you so much. I have gone from total ignorance to starting to feel comfortable in my quest for a Leica LTM, all thanks to this forum and your help.

Really, thank you all so much.

Regards - David

 

[David.Boettcher]

OK, now to embarrass myself, two really dumb questions:

1. Is the model number (IIIa etc) actually written on the cameras anywhere? It doesn't leap out at me. If it isn't (OK, 3 really dumb questions) how do you figure out what it is?

2. What does "OP" mean?

Regards - David

 

[johannielscom]

OK, now to embarrass myself, two really dumb questions:

1. Is the model number (IIIa etc) actually written on the cameras anywhere? It doesn't leap out at me. If it isn't (OK, 3 really dumb questions) how do you figure out what it is?

2. What does "OP" mean?

Regards - David

1. Nope, no model designation on the camera anywhere. You can have a look at the Head Bartenders site, www.cameraquest.com to determine models. At the end of my page is a link to a poster with a family tree of all Leicas and it helps for model determination.
2. OP=Original Poster. In this case, that is you! 🙂

 

[David.Boettcher]

1. Nope, no model designation on the camera anywhere. You can have a look at the Head Bartenders site, www.cameraquest.com to determine models. At the end of my page is a link to a poster with a family tree of all Leicas and it helps for model determination.

I thought so . . . I guess it just makes the "game" more interesting! I looked at the poster with a family tree of all Leicas that you link to, and that is very helpful, thanks.

I also found this web site: http://corsopolaris.net/supercameras/leica_RF/leicaRF2.html it's mainly in Italian, but the pictures are very detailed and I found them very helpful in identifying original features and characteristics.

2. OP=Original Poster. In this case, that is you! 🙂

In that case I had better come clean and admit that it was me that pulled the trigger on the ebay item 300561555669 - noobie impatience, followed by doubt and uncertainty . . . and then I saw the other fake one and I realised how little I knew and that I might have made a serious error. If I had made a mistake I was going to keep quiet and return the item . . .

I'm still not quite sure what I am going to get when it does arrive though because the vendor's pictures are not the best. But it was exactly what I was looking for, a IIIa with an f2 lens, so I will hope for the best.

I'm now on the hunt for a Weston Master IV to go with it . . .

Regards - David

 

[ray*j*gun]

Or, you could just buy from a reputable dealer or from our classifieds to be really safe. Dealers (and there are a number) will know the fakes. And you will also have some peace of mind after the purchase.

 

[David.Boettcher]

Or, you could just buy from a reputable dealer or from our classifieds to be really safe. Dealers (and there are a number) will know the fakes. And you will also have some peace of mind after the purchase.

All good advice which I shall certainly follow in the future. But until yesterday I didn't even know that this valuable resource existed. Talk about not doing my due diligence before plunging in! But now I know and I am wiser for the experience.

Thanks for your help and advice.

Regards - David

 

[johannielscom]

I thought so . . . I guess it just makes the "game" more interesting! I looked at the poster with a family tree of all Leicas that you link to, and that is very helpful, thanks.

I also found this web site: http://corsopolaris.net/supercameras/leica_RF/leicaRF2.html it's mainly in Italian, but the pictures are very detailed and I found them very helpful in identifying original features and characteristics.



In that case I had better come clean and admit that it was me that pulled the trigger on the ebay item 300561555669 - noobie impatience, followed by doubt and uncertainty . . . and then I saw the other fake one and I realised how little I knew and that I might have made a serious error. If I had made a mistake I was going to keep quiet and return the item . . .

I'm still not quite sure what I am going to get when it does arrive though because the vendor's pictures are not the best. But it was exactly what I was looking for, a IIIa with an f2 lens, so I will hope for the best.

I'm now on the hunt for a Weston Master IV to go with it . . .

Regards - David

Hi David,

well at least that was a legit IIIa from 1936 and the Summar lens on it is one of the cleanest I have seen in some time indeed! Lets hope it is clean inside and that the camera performs flawlessly. Price certainly would justify that, although in part you paid for the Summar which is really clean as it seems!

Anyway, welcome to the forum and to Leica LTM-dom! Going in the deep end can be a good way to figure out if the RF experience is your thing. If not and your camera is fully functional, you might even make a profit on selling the lens and the camera. So I guess you'll be okay either way 😉

 

[David.Boettcher]

Hi David,

well at least that was a legit IIIa from 1936 and the Summar lens on it is one of the cleanest I have seen in some time indeed! Lets hope it is clean inside and that the camera performs flawlessly. Price certainly would justify that, although in part you paid for the Summar which is really clean as it seems!

Anyway, welcome to the forum and to Leica LTM-dom! Going in the deep end can be a good way to figure out if the RF experience is your thing. If not and your camera is fully functional, you might even make a profit on selling the lens and the camera. So I guess you'll be okay either way 😉

Johan,

Thanks for your kind thoughts and words, and also to everyone who has taken the trouble to reply to my question. I'm quite looking forward to getting back into shooting with film and doing it the "hard" way.

My first camera was a second-hand Zenit B, and I still think that I took some of my best pictures with that camera. After that I experimented with all sorts, 6x6, plate etc. and then when the Lumix came out I sold all the Nikon 35mm gear I had accumulated and went totally digital. But by then I had given up taking pictures for pleasure and needed a camera to take pictures for work. I still have a Lumix, my fourth, and it is a great camera for taking pictures for my work, and for holiday snaps, but it is not so good for taking *pictures* if you know what I mean, so I am looking forward to experimenting with the Leica.

Now I have to go because I have located a pristine Weston Master IV and I need to phone the vendor. When the Leica arrives I will update you with what my impetuousity landed me with...

Regards - David

 

[rogerzilla]

Generally you can spot a fake just by the engraving, if you've handled/seen enough genuine Leicas. The FEDs also have a sort of triangular cam for the rangefinder whereas a real Leica has a round roller.

In many cases the Nazi engravings, polished brass finish (meant to look like gold) and fake dinosaur leather give the game away first!

 

[L David Tomei]

Just returned to see that this thread kept on going. Hope you enjoy the camera, David. As buzzrdkid mentioned, the Summar looks reasonably good. Don't forget, if this hasn't been mentioned, that the front lens is made of very soft glass on the old Summars. Even normally gentle cleaning can scratch the surface, so be exceptionally gentle (start a thread on cleaning old lenses to get a lot of advice from the people on RFF).
These Summars can often show up looking like they were cleaned with brillo, but it's actually the soft glass that is the real problem. A nice uncoated Summar can give you very interesting shots. Also, I usually have my Voightlander VC meter clipped on top. If you find one, look for the second model which has detentes on the dial. Good luck.

 

[Dralowid]

Just a few small points to be aware of...

Early Feds have a collimation hole at the back like early Leica I or II.
Their shutter release buttons are very similar to Leica.
Also they have the viewfinder window with the 'hip' round the adjustment screw which some use a Leica 'recogniser'.

Mind you this refers to quite early Feds. They are certainly no longer cheap cameras and would only have been used to create fakes many years ago.

Michael