What exactly does a CLA involve

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Film explorer

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Dear members,

You may have read recently my experiences that I had with my Minolta Himatic. In summary, it was a tough camera to operate and bracket as the f-stop and shutter speed rings were virtually on top of each other, prohibiting fast bracketing. When you tried to turn one, the other also turned!

So, I have decided to take the plunge and will hunt down a cheap M2. Now, I read that its best to send of a camera this age for a CLA as it's like a fine watch.

So, I will factor in the cost of that. This brings me to my question. What does a CLA involve? I know that it stands for clean, lubricate and adjust, but does the repairman check the condition of the shutter curtains??

My friend bought an old Leica and the curtain was full of pinholes! So, I was wondering is this part of the regular service, or do you specifically have to ask the repairman/woman to check for these holes??

Because it seems that they might get it running smooth again, but then very small pin holes would go unnoticed, so its back to the repair centre again.

Thankyou for any help regarding this question^^
 
It's a reasonable question. He's asking here because it's a Leica M forum.

I wouldn't mind hearing the answer from some people on here who will probably know the details...
 
Film explorer said:
Dear members,

... This brings me to my question. What does a CLA involve? I know that it stands for clean, lubricate and adjust, but does the repairman check the condition of the shutter curtains??

...
Click to expand...

I think most service people depend on the customer to inform them of any issues with their camera, and will not test the camera with film to either find problems or to check (after CLA) that all problems have been fixed.

Some sellers (like KEH) do offer warranty and will fix problems if they arise.

So you'll need to shoot with your camera for a while to see how it behaves, then deal with any problems that arise.
 
Film explorer said:
Dear members,

You may have read recently my experiences that I had with my Minolta Himatic. In summary, it was a tough camera to operate and bracket as the f-stop and shutter speed rings were virtually on top of each other, prohibiting fast bracketing. When you tried to turn one, the other also turned!

So, I have decided to take the plunge and will hunt down a cheap M2. Now, I read that its best to send of a camera this age for a CLA as it's like a fine watch.

So, I will factor in the cost of that. This brings me to my question. What does a CLA involve? I know that it stands for clean, lubricate and adjust, but does the repairman check the condition of the shutter curtains??

My friend bought an old Leica and the curtain was full of pinholes! So, I was wondering is this part of the regular service, or do you specifically have to ask the repairman/woman to check for these holes??

Because it seems that they might get it running smooth again, but then very small pin holes would go unnoticed, so its back to the repair centre again.

Thankyou for any help regarding this question^^
Click to expand...

There isn't any common "code" for these things and there is no "regular service" called CLA, each repairman has a set of things they will do under this label.

In general you can't expect an operation of the kind that takes a completely unknown camera and turns it into a perfectly good camera 100% of the time for $100. You can ask the repairman that while he's at it cleaning, lubricating and adjusting, that he should also just do a check-up on the camera if it works properly. This should catch common pitfalls like pinholes in the curtain and such (those are pretty obvious). It may not catch other, rarer issues. It may also turn up other, more complicated repairs that the basic CLA won't cover. It's part of the gamble you take when you buy a 50-year-old used camera in unknown condition.
 
Before you buy it get someone who knows these cameras to take a look at it. Curtain pinholes are easy to detect. Shine a maglight through the camera without lens and the back open in a darkened room. Check both curtains.
ChrisN's advice to buy, use and then see if there are any specific issues before cla makes sense.
 
It's a bit like dropping your car off and getting a "major service" done.

You have no idea who does it, and what gets done to it.

At the end of the process, you fork out a large sum of cash for a piece of paper that indicates a service was done (usually a list of technical guff that you don't really understand - but pretend to), some indication of work performed (usually oil residue), and that good old piece of mind that "everything should be OK for a while".

The placebo effect then kicks in and you start telling yourself that everything seems a lot smoother, and you are sure that 1/250th second sounds a lot more correct :)

Your exposures suddenly seem more "spot on".
 
A clean lube and adjust probably varies according to the tech and specific camera. Generally on an M it's as it sounds; clean the VF, film chamber etc, lube the gears where required and adjusting shutter speeds and rangefinder. It's also a great opportunity to check for curtain problems (pinholes etc.), potential VF issues, cosmetics... these would normally be quoted as extra. CLA's are expensive, take ages usually but the M's come back SWEET! You kind of forget about the time and money quickly then ;-)
 
i had several CLA service to my friends, basically I will attack the main issue (shutter locked, re-setting the curtain speed, RF adjust, re-leathering, cleaning rf, etc) and avoid touching the area that has no issue. I keep them informed what issue i found with picture and what extra cost for extra treatment i need to do, so price-wise it will have several steps like : first check, basic cla, intermediate, and full cla.

Reputable service center may charge full package price for any small issue, price is flat, benefit is they will do everything needed to be done (other than spare part) to make the camera back to tip top condition.

Different service person/center may have different price/cla scheme, but I believe you can ask them the terms & condition for the price they ask.

As for me, i keep my service limited as i have no free time to do it.
Just opinion from someone ever did cla.
 
Moriturii said:
Why not email the person and ask them instead? Why do you post here? They don't have a secret code that they live by, to never tell anyone anything ever, you know?

http://www.yyecamera.com/

http://www.dagcamera.com/

http://www.sherrykrauter.com/

Whoever else you might be interested in.
Click to expand...

"Why do I post here"? Well, which category should I have posted under? If not Leica M, then where? Also, why are you even wasting your time replying to my original question if it's such an affront to you? More to the point what are you even doing here prowling around talking gibberish?

With what was a rather innocuous question, it is rather surprising to read an inflammatory/trollish response. Yes, I'm a beginner, therefore I don't have a lot of knowledge on Leica. Hence, that is why I posted.

If you had even bothered to read my original question properly, it wouldn't have taken much intelligence to see that I was trying to gather information about the CLA process BEFORE I contact the service gurus. Obviously I wanted to get a feel for the process, so I didn't end up asking stupid questions like your reply.

Anyway, I'll leave you to your secret code/world of dungeons, dragons, leitz, teen youtube quarrels and everything in between.

To everyone else, thankyou for taking the time to provide such measured respones. It has certainly been an interesting read and will ultimately help me if I end up doing a CLA.

Also, while I'm here and out of curiousity, does anyone know how much it costs to get curtains replaced on a M, and is it a complicated time consuming process? If pin holes are evident, do the curtains even need to be replaced, or are they just patched up?

Thankyou.
 
Film explorer said:
Also, while I'm here and out of curiousity, does anyone know how much it costs to get curtains replaced on a M, and is it a complicated time consuming process? If pin holes are evident, do the curtains even need to be replaced, or are they just patched up?
Click to expand...

You can patch it up if the holes are small, but it's not ideal and it's better to replace it. As cost estimates for that I've seen everything between $50 and $150 so far.
 
rxmd said:
You can patch it up if the holes are small, but it's not ideal and it's better to replace it. As cost estimates for that I've seen everything between $50 and $150 so far.
Click to expand...

rxmd - Thanks for that information. I think that I have a good feel for what I am potentially up for if the need for a CLA arises!^
 
Film explorer: Your well used M2 may nor may not need to be cleaned up. Compared to other cameras of the same age, these are very durable machines, made to be used and serviced. Really, they are pretty amazing for 60 year old machines. But like any 60 year old machine, parts may fail due to use, non-use, mis-use or ham-handed repairs. Your issues will be specific to your camera and will be determined by how the camera has been treated by prior owners. For instance, if the camera has been sitting unused in grandpa's desk drawer lubricants can get dry and gummy. If the camera has been pointed at the sun without a lenscap, the shutter curtains can get pinholes. In damp environments, the shutter curtains can rot or mold can develop in the camera. The rangefinder can de-silver (get dim) or get dust in it or get dirty, or the traveler arm can get sticky or be out of allignment. Or a prior owner may have gotten sand in the gears or dunked it accidentally in salt water. You get the idea. The list of things that can go wrong is as long as the number of parts in the camera -- but I should stress that these are unlikely if the camera has not been abused. The test for this idea is the number of these used cameras that are still clicking away after decades.

I have had two M3's, two M2's (one sold), an M5, two M6's (one sold), M6TTL, and an M7 (sold). My first were the M3's, which came to me first in 1992 or so. One M2 shutter curtain needed replacement, the M6 had a metering circuit go bad -- that's about it. Keep in mind that the shutters only need to be accurate within a third of a stop or so.

Sherry Krauter (Golden Touch) is one of my favorite repair folks because she is always willing to discuss the cameras' strengths/weaknesses, advantages, etc. She will tell you that the shutter springs in these cameras are so under-tensioned that they will likely outlast you.

Do this: get the camera, put a couple of rolls of B&W film through it with some good controls on focus, metering and development. Expose film at each shutter speed. Take a critical look at the negatives and see whether the camera is performing. If the pictures look good and the camera functions well, just forget about the CLA and shoot. I don't think CLA's are all that expensive, particularly as you will probably never have to pay for another on that camera. But these things are relative and if a CLA costs $200 (I am making up that number) it might be trivial to me, but a deal breaker for you. Give Sherry a call -- she'll give you a ball park figure and you can decide for yourself. As to having to ask the repair person to check for pinholes: if it is a concern, just ask. But as others have said you can easily check for this yourself. Another thing: one poster above said that CLAs take "ages." The repair folks that people have recommended here are experienced and used to dealing with a range of shooters. When I have needed something fixed quickly or if I have a deadline, I will ask the repair person candidly, "I need this by X-date. CAN YOU GET IT BACK TO ME BY THEN?" They prioritize just like everyone else, but you have to let them know your constraints. BTW, if they are bumping you to the head of the line, be prepared to pay something for the service.

BTW: the M2 came in at least two major versions: button rewind and lever rewind. I have found the lever rewind versions more trouble free -- better internal design.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Ben Marks
 
Benjamin Marks said:
Film explorer: Your well used M2 may nor may not need to be cleaned up. Compared to other cameras of the same age, these are very durable machines, made to be used and serviced. Really, they are pretty amazing for 60 year old machines. But like any 60 year old machine, parts may fail due to use, non-use, mis-use or ham-handed repairs. Your issues will be specific to your camera and will be determined by how the camera has been treated by prior owners. For instance, if the camera has been sitting unused in grandpa's desk drawer lubricants can get dry and gummy. If the camera has been pointed at the sun without a lenscap, the shutter curtains can get pinholes. In damp environments, the shutter curtains can rot or mold can develop in the camera. The rangefinder can de-silver (get dim) or get dust in it or get dirty, or the traveler arm can get sticky or be out of allignment. Or a prior owner may have gotten sand in the gears or dunked it accidentally in salt water. You get the idea. The list of things that can go wrong is as long as the number of parts in the camera -- but I should stress that these are unlikely if the camera has not been abused. The test for this idea is the number of these used cameras that are still clicking away after decades.

I have had two M3's, two M2's (one sold), an M5, two M6's (one sold), M6TTL, and an M7 (sold). My first were the M3's, which came to me first in 1992 or so. One M2 shutter curtain needed replacement, the M6 had a metering circuit go bad -- that's about it. Keep in mind that the shutters only need to be accurate within a third of a stop or so.

Sherry Krauter (Golden Touch) is one of my favorite repair folks because she is always willing to discuss the cameras' strengths/weaknesses, advantages, etc. She will tell you that the shutter springs in these cameras are so under-tensioned that they will likely outlast you.

Do this: get the camera, put a couple of rolls of B&W film through it with some good controls on focus, metering and development. Expose film at each shutter speed. Take a critical look at the negatives and see whether the camera is performing. If the pictures look good and the camera functions well, just forget about the CLA and shoot. I don't think CLA's are all that expensive, particularly as you will probably never have to pay for another on that camera. But these things are relative and if a CLA costs $200 (I am making up that number) it might be trivial to me, but a deal breaker for you. Give Sherry a call -- she'll give you a ball park figure and you can decide for yourself. As to having to ask the repair person to check for pinholes: if it is a concern, just ask. But as others have said you can easily check for this yourself. Another thing: one poster above said that CLAs take "ages." The repair folks that people have recommended here are experienced and used to dealing with a range of shooters. When I have needed something fixed quickly or if I have a deadline, I will ask the repair person candidly, "I need this by X-date. CAN YOU GET IT BACK TO ME BY THEN?" They prioritize just like everyone else, but you have to let them know your constraints. BTW, if they are bumping you to the head of the line, be prepared to pay something for the service.

BTW: the M2 came in at least two major versions: button rewind and lever rewind. I have found the lever rewind versions more trouble free -- better internal design.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Ben Marks
Click to expand...

Ben - Thanks for comprehensive review of CLA's. The information was perfect and just what I was looking for.

Your advice is good - I will test the M2 before considering whether it is needed. The reason that I wrote my initial question was I was curious about the process so if need be, I didn't go in 'blind' before I contacted the service person/guru.

Thanks again!
 
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