Leica M7 with Metz 54 MZ TTL flash

[DavidKKHansen]

I've been using a Nikon SB-900 flash with a Zeiss Ikon SW camera (the one without rangefinder) for a while and have no trouble using manual flash settings for flash exposure. The Ikon SW is brilliant for wide angle flash use, as it both has a PC port and a hot shoe next to the cold shoe. The hot shoe is located so that it doesn't get in the way of the viewfinder when triggering the flash with a cable (I'm using the Nikon SC-28), and when using the PC port you won't accidentally poke yourself in the eye (ehem... Leica!)

But today I placed an order for a Leica M7 camera, and that got me thinking about automatic TTL flash shooting. As far as I understand, I only have these options for TTL flash:

- Leica's offerings of either the SF 58 or SF 24
- A Metz flash with the correct SCA adaptor. The compatible Metz flash would be a 54-something, I believe?

That's about it, right? I might get the Leica SF 24 for an compact soulution for on camera flash, but is it possible to set up a off-camera flash and still keep TTL flash metering? I've read somewhere that it's possible to use the SF 24 with the Nikon SC-28 and keep TTL flash metering... I'm wondering how this is possible??

 

[Godfrey]

You can use the Nikon flash with the Leica, but you cannot use the Leica TTL flas metering .. That takes a dedicated flash unit that understands the Leica control protocol.

 

[mervynyan]

i have used bee's wireless on m7, meter manually.

 

[RichardB]

I have two M7's and use the 24D and a Metz Handle unit with the correct 5302 module. Thear are different 3502's out there so go to the Metz site and figuer out which you want. The Sf58 unit will also work and it's rebadged Metz unit. The Metz are BIG and I only use the Metz with a 21mm lens.
The 24D is compact and about all you will require for most flash shots. It doesn't cver 21mm but only to 24mm or 28mm, can't remember right now which.
The Leica SF units set the correct shutter speed on the camera if the M7 is in AUTO and the camera tells the SF units what the film speed is and controls the flash duration from the TTL flash metering. Wokrs very well.
I believe if you get the correct Nikon cord you can use a SF unit off camera but you then have to hold the flash and camera seperately which seems like a disaster in the making.
Your Nikon flash will work on camera but you will have to shoot in AUTO with the flash after you program the flash and then remember to set the correct shutter speed.
Either SF unit is much simpler and faster.-Dick

 

[DavidKKHansen]

I have two M7's and use the 24D and a Metz Handle unit with the correct 5302 module. Thear are different 3502's out there so go to the Metz site and figuer out which you want. The Sf58 unit will also work and it's rebadged Metz unit. The Metz are BIG and I only use the Metz with a 21mm lens.
The 24D is compact and about all you will require for most flash shots. It doesn't cver 21mm but only to 24mm or 28mm, can't remember right now which.
The Leica SF units set the correct shutter speed on the camera if the M7 is in AUTO and the camera tells the SF units what the film speed is and controls the flash duration from the TTL flash metering. Wokrs very well.-Dick

Brilliant information, thanks!

Do you have any experience using any of the compatible flashes off-camera with a cable? Any cable that supports TTL flash metering?
(I can already shoot flash off-camera in manual mode, but if it's possible to get a set-up that supports TTL metering then I'd like to know more!)

 

[presspass]

Does the M7 work TTL with a pre-flash? Any time I've tried, it seems to pre-flash, which makes it easier to use an auto flash rather than TTL. Am I doing it wrong?

 

[Godfrey]

Brilliant information, thanks!

Do you have any experience using any of the compatible flashes off-camera with a cable? Any cable that supports TTL flash metering?
(I can already shoot flash off-camera in manual mode, but if it's possible to get a set-up that supports TTL metering then I'd like to know more!)

If I recall correctly, I used a Leica SF20 with M6TTL coupled with a Canon flash extension cable to get off-camera TTL flash operation.

That said, I never did see much real value to TTL flash with the Leica M. Results didn't vary much compared to using a flash with its own built-in auto-exposure sensor. My best flash exposures always come from using a hand-held incident flash meter and manual flash.

Nowadays, I don't bother with wired couplings at all. I fit a set of RF triggers and receivers (Cactus V2 or V5) to camera and flashes, set the flashes up on stands, and take a couple of readings with the flash meter to get a ball park setting for the camera around my setup or the room I'm shooting in. Much much simpler and easier to work with than juggling camera, flash and cables.

(I almost never work flash with film any more anyway, so it's much easier to just make a couple of test exposures and check the histogram using the M9's review function. Adjust until happy with the results, then shoot away.)

 

[DavidKKHansen]

Right, and here I was thinking that TTL flash and Autoflash were the same thing? Also, I completely forgot about pre-flashing... sounds rather annoying when you want to shoot quickly, which I thought was the point with a TTL flash.

Seems I've opened a small can of worms for myself, I might just end up sticking with the SB-900 in manual mode 😀

 

[Godfrey]

Right, and here I was thinking that TTL flash and Autoflash were the same thing? Also, I completely forgot about pre-flashing... sounds rather annoying when you want to shoot quickly, which I thought was the point with a TTL flash. ..

I don't recall the SB-20 using pre-flash with the M6TTL. Can't imagine that would be different with the SB-24 or the M7.

(Since I've not owned a Leica dedicated flash unit since I sold the SB-20, I don't know whether even the M9 does pre-flash TTL metering ...)

 

[DavidKKHansen]

Thank you everyone with your responses! Once I get the M7, I will head down to the Leica store in Berlin and see if I can try a SF 24 on it and see how I feel about it. Maybe I can use the Nikon SC-28 cable to pull the SF 24 off the camera, otherwise I'll settle for the SB-900 in manual mode.

All your comments have been very helpful, thanks!

 

[Robert Lai]

Metz MZ3/4 + SCA 3502 M5, Nikon SC-17 cable and Metz 40MZ 1/2/3i + SCA 3083 M2

Metz MZ3/4 + SCA 3502 M5, Nikon SC-17 cable and Metz 40MZ 1/2/3i + SCA 3083 M2

One of the big reasons why I bought the M7 is its versatility with flash. It has the most flash control capabilities of the Leica M film cameras, with the M6 TTL coming in second. What you need for fully dedicated TTL multiple flash unit control is contained in my headline above.

I have the Leica SF-24, and it is a nice tiny flash. That's just about it. It doesn't have a lot of power. It comes with two angle adapters for 24mm and 85mm lens coverage. You can have TTL flash control, but you can't trigger multiple flash units with TTL control.

I also have the Metz 45 CL-4 digital, which is a big handle-mount brute with sheer power and TTL control. However, it won't let you perform multiflash unit TTL control, nor will it allow you to use 2nd curtain synch or HSS with the M7.

If you really want to use a multiple flash setup with TTL control, and HSS (manual High Shutter Speed flash) for daylight fill flash, then the Metz 54 MZ 3 or 4 is the controller to get. Want HSS flash? Set the flash to manual, then set your M7 camera shutter speed to 1/250 and above. The 54MZ flash unit enters the HSS automatically. I have both the 54 MZ3 and 54 MZ4. I don't really notice any major difference between them. Either unit will cover 20mm to 105mm in its zoom range. Just get one in good condition, with the small neutral density filter to cover the secondary flash head still present (these are often missing on used flash units). On the M7, the 54MZ 3/4 also allow you to set 2nd curtain synch. If you use a slow shutter speed and flash to photograph moving objects, the streak goes behind the object if you use 2nd curtain synch.

You need a Metz SCA 3502 adapter unit to interface your Leica camera to the Metz flashes. Latest firmware revision is M5. To revise an older unit to the latest, you need to send it to Manfrotto USA's Colorado service center. Charge is $15 for upgrading the firmware. It used to be free.

To mount your flash off camera, use the Nikon SC-17 cable. The Nikon cable is easy to find, whereas the comparable Metz cable is almost impossible to find now. The Nikon cable works perfectly for TTL connection. Note: Leica and Nikon hot shoe pinouts are incompatible. They are physically the same, that's why the SC-17 cable works to connect a Leica camera to a Leica flash. But you won't get TTL flash control with a Nikon flash on your Leica. Nikon uses each pin differently than Leica. You'd have to use the "auto" or manual mode. In auto mode, a sensor on the flash unit cuts off flash power based on the ISO, and f/stop that you tell the flash unit that you are using. With the M7 and the Leica or Metz flashes, the ISO and shutter speed in use are conveyed to the flash units automatically.

You will probably want to mount the flash out of the camera hot shoe for several reasons. One is that the flash is somewhat bulky and heavy. It could potentially damage the hot shoe on your M7, if accidentally struck while the flash is mounted. The other is that raising the flash higher avoids red eye in your subject, and causes the shadow to fall down behind and below the subject. I use a Stroboframe Press T bracket, but any flash bracket will do.

The final reason to get the Metz 54 MZ 3/4 is that you can get TTL multiple flash unit control using the Metz REMOTE system. The 54 MZ unit acts as the master controller, when set to TTL Command mode.

Get a bunch of 40MZ 1/2/3 flash units (typical used price is $50), and add the Metz SCA 3083 M2 (or 3082) slave controller, set to TTL. The controller allows use of the flash as a slave to controllers that pre-flash. The SCA 3083/3082 also comes with a handy little table stand, so that the flash can be placed on a flat surface, or mounted on a light stand / tripod.

What's the difference between the 40 MZ 1/2/3?

The 40 MZ 1 has no secondary flash (for fill and bounce), and covers 20mm to 105mm. This also offers the modelling light mode.

40 MZ 2 has a secondary flash (allows you to bounce main head, fill with the secondary), covers 24 to 105mm. It does not offer the modelling light mode.

40 MZ 3 has secondary flash, covers 20-105mm, and offers the modelling light mode.

What is modelling light mode?
When set on the controller, all of the slave flashes capable of doing so will light up repeatedly, simultaneously, acting as a modelling light. You can see what the effect of the multiple light sources will look like before you take the picture.

I usually use 3 secondary flashes when taking pictures of my children. 2 light up the background, to get rid of that "dark background" look that you get with one flash unit on the camera. One acts as a main light at about 45 degrees off camera axis. The 54 MZ control unit on the flash bracket acts as the "fill" light. Perform a test flash of the control unit, and all of the secondary flash units should fire a confirmatory flash to tell you that their sensors picked up the control unit signals. Adjust your shutter speed to suit (the camera light meter will still tell you when you have the correct exposure for ambient lighting). Finally, take the picture.

When you finally see how nice the multiple flash unit pictures are, you will be loathe to go back to a single on-camera flash unit ever again.

For cameras which don't have TTL flash control, but do have an X-synch PC socket, you can still have multi-flash automatic exposure control with the Metz 54MZ 3/4. Take the SCA 3502 unit off. Mount the generic hot shoe adapter, and hook up using a PC cable from the hot shoe adapter to the flash socket of the camera. The 54 MZ flash will offer you automatic exposure control. Keep the slave units in the TTL mode, so that they will be under the control of the 54 MZ master unit.

Now, any camera with X-flash synch can have multiflash automatic exposures. It works great with my Zeiss Super Ikontas, Nikon F, etc.

 

[DavidKKHansen]

Robert, the information you provided is worth gold! Any mysteries about using flash on an M7 is now clarified, especially the jungle of the Metz system! It also makes sense that you can use Nikon cables, as they're basically only a neutral connection passing on information.

I have to re-read your post a few times again later, as for me it's quite a lot of new information. Thank you for taking the time to write all of this, I will get back to the thread once I've figured out which direction I'll go when I get the camera.

 

[Robert Lai]

You're welcome David.
It took me a lot of time and money (and a lot of flashes that I didn't need) until I figured this out. I thought I would save you the difficulties. This is the system that I use now.

 

[Godfrey]

Thanks so much, Robert. That is very kind of you.

Not that I use or need multiple dedicated flash all that much, but this information is hard to find without doing as you did: spending lots of money and time to ferret it out.

G

 

[Robert Lai]

I should add that part of the problem with Metz is that their documentation is spread out. The flash unit manual does NOT have all of the instructions to get the unit working properly with your camera. It merely tells you what controls are on the flash, and how to adjust their settings.

The heart of the matter is usually in the SCA adapter unit instruction booklet. It's this tiny booklet which tells you the nitty gritty of what settings you need to make this system work with your specific camera.

Luckily, the booklets are small enough that they easily fit into a zip lock, and from there into the camera bag for reference at all times.

Instead of the slaves producing a delayed confirmatory flash when you hit the test flash button, for example, you may choose to have the flashes chirp a beep instead. After trying it a few times, I found all the beeping to be so annoying (as did my subjects), that I've gone back to the delayed flash confirmation signal.

 

[RichardB]

Brilliant information, thanks!

Do you have any experience using any of the compatible flashes off-camera with a cable? Any cable that supports TTL flash metering?
(I can already shoot flash off-camera in manual mode, but if it's possible to get a set-up that supports TTL metering then I'd like to know more!)

I use the 24D for what is now called 'street photogrpahy'.
A simple turning ON of the 24D if mounted on the M7 will have the correct shutter speed set for flash and the film ASA auto sent from the camera to the flash. Turn the 24D OFF and its back to non flash photography in AUTO. No need to set anything or know about flash ranges etc.
The reason for the METZ handle unit is that with 24mm & 21mm lenses, the M series requires external viewfinders, negating the use of the hotshoe for TTL flash. Please don't Post about double hot shoe units because they have made them in the past but they are not available now, if they even worked.
So for flash on an M camera with 24,21mm, the flash is off camera and non-TTL. so I purchased a METZ handle unit and use it with a M6 because I usually keep Motor M's on my M7's. Works fine but I find that my Fm3A with Nikon flash and 24mm lens is a better package for TTL wide angle flash and I always have a motor on the Nikon.
There is no need for a pre-flash with the M7 as it tells you if the exposure has been correct by blinking or not blinking after the shot. don't ask me which because the M is one way and the Nikon is just the opposite. I keep a note sheet in my carry bag with how each works and read again right before using.
If using a Motor on either camera, this negates the feature because the film is advanced and who knows what any blinking or non blinking means.
I just shoot and do not use these set ups for Portrait photogrpahy.
I have done weddings for friends at no charge using the M7, 35mm and 75 ASPH lenses with the SF24D. 90mm is almost never used with flash and requires an adapter over the flash head that focuses the light. Works fine.
For a larger formal wedding I shot this summer, I used the Fm3A, 24mm and nikon TTL flash for the large group protraits and the M7's for 21, 35mmmm and75,90mm shots without flash during the ceremony. The 35mm won't cover large groups and the 21mm/METZ set up is just too cumbersome.
Take it slow and simple. you have a Nikon flash that will work in AUTO and the back should have a light that tells you if the shot is OK. Use that and see if acceptable before spending anymore money.
The M7 with SF flash without Motor or without Motor turned on will tell you in the viewfinder if the flash is OK but that's for when you are working fast whch from what I gather fron all the effort spent by some of the Posters is not the case for most.
KISS is the main principle I adhere to.
Good luck!-Dick

 

[Robert Lai]

Accessory viewfinders and the Nikon SC-17 cable

Accessory viewfinders and the Nikon SC-17 cable

RichardB has brought up an interesting issue, which I addressed myself last weekend. With the TTL cable in the hot shoe, where does a viewfinder go if I want to use my 21mm or CV 15mm lenses?

The answer is - on top of the SC-17!
The SC-17 cable adapter has a flat top on it.
It has a locking pin in the shoe mount, so that it won't slide out of the hot shoe inadvertently. More important for our purposes is that the hot shoe locking pin insures that the SC-17 will be in the same position in the shoe every time we mount it. This allows for accuracy and precision.

What you need is a "flash to tripod adapter", and some silicone adhesive (Home Depot, Ace Hardware, etc). You can find these things for about $1 on ebay, but I think mine came with a flash bracket. It is made out of plastic, with a brass insert on the bottom to mount on a tripod screw.

I then used a Canon 135mm viewfinder, set to 5 feet. Using my M7 (0.85 with 1.25 magnifier, giving 1:1 magnification), and a lens set to 5 feet, I then compared the camera's 135mm framelines to the image in the Canon finder. When they are identical, then I know I have the correct position to glue down the cold shoe. As a guideline, the front edge of the cold shoe should be flush with the front edge of the SC-17. Then, you need only adjust the lateral position to get the same framing.
In my case, the Canon VF continued to look too high. A few minutes with a mill file on the bottom of the cold shoe took about 1mm preferentially from the front edge of the cold shoe. Then, the image lined up correctly.

All that is left to do is to put a thin film of silicone adhesive on the bottom of the cold shoe, and adhere it to the location that you had marked out. The silicone adhesive gives you 10 minutes of adjustment time. Leave the adhesive to set for 48 hours, and then the bond is permanent.

One of the two photographs shows the appearance of the cold shoe and viewfinder on the SC-17. The other shows the overall view of how I "bore-sighted" the cold shoe location. If the framing is accurate for 135mm lenses, then it should be adequate for 15 and 21mm lenses, which have a lot more room to work with in the frame.

 

[RichardB]

Much too much hardware for an M.
A SLR works much better than an M if you want to go superwide with flash off camera.
I can't see using that on the street and if in a studio environment, than a SLR.-Dick

 

[Robert Lai]

Why the Metz 54 MZ 3/4 is superior to the Leica SF24

Why the Metz 54 MZ 3/4 is superior to the Leica SF24

I own all of these flash units (and more):
Leica SF24, Metz 54 Mz3, 54 MZ4, 45 CL 4 digital, 40MZ 2, 40 MZ 1. Although the Metz system is more work to set up initially, in use it amounts to scattering a few flash units around, and firing the shutter. Nothing could be easier!

The beauty of the Metz remote system is that it is not wedded to any specific camera manufacturer. I use the same flashes, put a Nikon F3 controller on one of the master flash units, and I have TTL multiple flash unit control with my Nikon F3. Put in the standard shoe with the PC cord, and I can have auto-exposure multiple flash unit control with my Rolleiflex TLRs. One flash system that can be used with any camera manufacturer's equipment. That is the beauty of the Metz system.

The way the Leica SF24 behaves, and its menu choices make it clear that it is made by Metz for Leica. The SF24 and any Metz flash with the SCA3502 or SCA3501 adapter all behave the same way on the Leica M7 or M6TTL.

With the M7/M6TTL shutter speed manually set, the flash will fire with TTL control so long as the shutter speed is 1/50 or less. The camera's light meter continues to show what the correct exposure for the ambient light is. In this way, you can adjust the balance between the ambient light and the flash units. You get the little lightening bolt symbols in the viewfinder to indicate a proper exposure, or to show that the flash is fully charged. You can also tell the flash to synch with the first or second shutter curtain.

If the M7/M6TTL shutter speed is above 1/50 second, then the flash will not fire. Your camera continues to behave as if no flash was present.

With the M7, and the 54 MZ3/4 in manual mode, if the shutter is 1/250 or faster, then you enter into the High Speed Synch (HSS) mode. The flash will indicate what subject distance is required for your shooting aperture, which you must enter into the flash. You can adjust the flash power levels using the control wheel until you obtain the same subject distance that your lens focusing ring shows. Then, fire to take the picture.

With the M7 on AUTO, the shutter speed is automatically set to 1/50 if the flash is turned on, and you have wound the shutter to get the metering patch into play in the camera. Again, you can tell the flash to synch with the first or second shutter curtain.

So, there is no functional difference between the SF24 and the Metz SCA 3502/3501 equipped flash units. There is a major difference in versatility. If you are going to pay over $200 for the SF24, I feel you are better served by paying about $200 (or less) and getting the Metz 54 MZ3/4 instead. Nothing prevents you from popping the Metz unit into your M7 hot shoe and firing away, just as you would with the SF24. Just don't try to use the same SF24 unit on your Nikon, Canon, etc.

Since the original poster asked about flash options for his M7, this is my response. It doesn't matter if you want to use an SLR or an 8x10 view camera - you can still use the Metz Remote system. Now, Leica doesn't use pre-flashes. But, other makers (e.g. N, C) do. You can still use those 40MZ slave units with the flashes from the other manufacturers.

The discussion about the 21 and 15mm lenses brings me to one of the main reasons why I went into multi-unit flash: light fall-off in the corners of super wide angles. As an aside, if you can find a 15mm lens for my Nikon SLR that is as cheap and as good as the CV 15, then please let me know. The strength of the rangefinder is that you can focus wide angle lenses, and especially super-wides, far more easily than viewing through an SLR. So, I'm not convinced what great advantage the SLR has over the RF camera when using super wide lenses.

The CV15 loses above 2 f/stops into the corners. Sure, you can try to salvage detail in there using software on the film scans (Leica M7, remember), but you end up lightening grain and noise from severely underexposed film. The better solution is to throw 2 more f/stops worth of light into those corners and have a balanced exposure to begin with. Since most people aren't comfortable with multiplying by the square root of 2 (1.414), you can use your handy aperture scale on the lens instead. For example, a flash unit 4 meters away will be twice as bright as a flash unit 5.6 meters away. If the main subject is 4 meters away, then light up the wall behind the subject with slave flashes 2 meters away from the corners of the frame, and those corners will be 2 f/stops brighter than the main subject. Now, when the photograph is taken, the 2 stop fall off of the lens produces an overall balanced illumination across the frame.

The Metz remote system does not allow you to control the lighting ratios on each of the individual slave flash units. What happens is that the camera's light meter sends signals to the master control flash during the flash exposure. When enough light has been given for the proper exposure, ALL of the flashes shut off at the same time. Since the exposure duration is the same for all of the flashes involved, lighting ratio control is by adjusting the flash distances to the areas that they are illuminating. Again, you do have the option of the modelling light feature to show you what your lighting effects will look like.

Too much work for you?
Then just pop any flash into your hot-shoe and shoot away. Nobody says you have to get into all of this. But, the beauty of the M7 TTL system is that you CAN get into all of this IF YOU WANT TO.

 

[RichardB]

M7 set to AUTO, SF24D set to TTL.
I don't need to to set ASA anywhere, I don't have to set shhuter speed anytime, I don't need to do anyhting but focus, compose and shoot.
Turn SF24D to OFF, M7 is still in AUTO and all I need to do is focus, compose and shoot. I can chnage the aperture and the M7 adjusts automatically with or without SF24D ON or OFF.
Simple.
It's obvious that we shoot very different subjects and have very different styles. As I alluded to, one pf my principles is KISS. The M7 with SF flash unit is simple or with a METZ but the METZ units are BIG.
I also use an M7 with 21mm f2.8 ASPH as a 'Point & Shoot'. Works great for fast changing conditions. I don't carry any camera bag but only one or two M7's and only carry the SF24D when I know I'm going to be in a low light area.
If I were to use all the equipment you require, I would not be using M cameras in a Studio type environment. Yes, it can be done but it's eally an intellectual exercise with little practicality.
EOT for me.
For the OP, use your Nikon flash, I think you will very satisfied with it. After using for awhile decide which way you want to go, simple or complicated.
IT's really up to you.-Dick