Zorki/MIR shutter mistake at the camera shop.

[keyofnight]

Yesterday I received a MIR, the Zorki 4 with fewer shutter speeds, from Fedka.com. It seems pretty awesome.

Today, I decided to take it to local camera shop to get its shutter speeds checked out. I made it very clear to them that they shouldn't change shutter speeds without cocking the shutter first. One guy ran it through their machine and turned up with "Eh... these are so-so speed timings, but they're usable." He was very careful to follow my instructions. He, however, wanted a second opinion…so he brought in another guy.

The second guy ran it through the machine himself and turned up with a different attitude, "So this shutter is 3/4ths of a stop off and erratic!" He showed me the back and continued to explain, "See how the shutter slides back... one of the times I cocked the shutter, the two curtains were 1/8th of an inch apart! The shutter is so weird on this camera…" I hadn't noticed any of that the 100 times I cocked the shutter the night before. As he continued to show me problem, I noticed: he changed the shutter speed before he cocked the shutter. I said, "But you just changed the shutter before you cocked the shutter!" He just ignored me and kept talking, winding, firing. I'm not sure how many times he did that. :/

He told me to send it back, save some money, and buy a Leica III. What the hell? Of course, he had a Leica III he was willing to sell me…engraved with someone's else's name in it. Ug. I took my camera back, fired the shutter 20 times to check if he broke it, said good day, and screamed outside. I was almost mad enough to fight so I jut picked the path of least resistance and got out of there. :/ I like the owner of that shop and I like the first guy, but this second guy was not careful at all. :bang:

Here are some questions then:

• Is my camera borked in the long run?—and how would I know if it is?
• Are erratic shutter speeds typical of shutter misuse? (That's what I've read, and I've also read they can go back to normal after 2-3 shots, but you guys would know better.)
• Should I send it back to Yuri at Fedka.com?
• Also: I'd love to hear your similar experiences. How many of you have had people nearly screw up your FSU RF?

I've posted this over at APUG, but I'm curious what ya'll think. Thanks.

 

[wolves3012]

Hi and welcome to RFF, as I see it's only your second post. You don't need to worry too much on a Zorki Mir, it does not have slow speeds and these are what are usually the cause of damage in a change-before-cocking scenario.

There are two speeds that have a limit pin between them and I'm not sure what they are on a Mir (on other models it's 1/500 and 'B'). Forcing the dial between these breaks the pin and it's much easier to do accidentally when the shutter isn't cocked. Cock the shutter, then change speeds and you'll find a point where the dial stops, it doesn't go a full 360-degrees. That where the limit pin stops it.

I'd be a bit concerned by the 1/8" gap, if that's true. Watch the curtains as you wind on, they should start on the left and the metal laths should overlap. As you wind and the curtains move across, the laths should overlap progressively more. At no point should there ever be a gap (not counting when the shutter fires, of course!). Interesting comment that the shutter is "weird", seeing how it's almost identical to a Leica shutter!

Erratic speeds might also be something to worry about - he did not say just how erratic they are? It's fair to say that you would not expect a mechanical shutter to be accurate or perfectly consistent.

In honesty, I'd just run a film through it and see how the results come out before deciding whether to send it back, unless you have obvious grounds to be suspicious.

 

[keyofnight]

Hi and welcome to RFF, as I see it's only your second post. You don't need to worry too much on a Zorki Mir, it does not have slow speeds and these are what are usually the cause of damage in a change-before-cocking scenario.

There are two speeds that have a limit pin between them and I'm not sure what they are on a Mir (on other models it's 1/500 and 'B'). Forcing the dial between these breaks the pin and it's much easier to do accidentally when the shutter isn't cocked. Cock the shutter, then change speeds and you'll find a point where the dial stops, it doesn't go a full 360-degrees. That where the limit pin stops it.

I'd be a bit concerned by the 1/8" gap, if that's true. Watch the curtains as you wind on, they should start on the left and the metal laths should overlap. As you wind and the curtains move across, the laths should overlap progressively more. At no point should there ever be a gap (not counting when the shutter fires, of course!). Interesting comment that the shutter is "weird", seeing how it's almost identical to a Leica shutter!

Erratic speeds might also be something to worry about - he did not say just how erratic they are? It's fair to say that you would not expect a mechanical shutter to be accurate or perfectly consistent.

In honesty, I'd just run a film through it and see how the results come out before deciding whether to send it back, unless you have obvious grounds to be suspicious.

Thanks for the welcome. I've been lurking around here for a long time, but I never felt right about posting without owning a rangefinder. 🙂

So, I've cocked the shutter a bunch, and never did I once see the shutter open while cocking it. I do see the shutter curtains overlap more and more as they get closer to the right side, but I never do see a gap.

He did say the speeds vary by 3/4ths of a stop. Each time he checked it, he seemed to get confused: as if they seemed normal at first, but then they got erratic.

I hear the Mirs have the 1/1000th speeds of the Zorki 4, and mine has the mystery dot setting. I was really hoping they could tell me if it's really 1/1000th. The guy told me the setting does nothing, but after what he did…I don't trust that after what he did.

I'll run a roll of Tri-X through it. Thanks. 🙂

 

[wolves3012]

So, I've cocked the shutter a bunch, and never did I once see the shutter open while cocking it. I do see the shutter curtains overlap more and more as they get closer to the right side, but I never do see a gap.

That suggests there's no inherent fault in the workings, which is good.

He did say the speeds vary by 3/4ths of a stop. Each time he checked it, he seemed to get confused: as if they seemed normal at first, but then they got erratic.

It could be in need of a CLA, no mechanical shutter is deadly accurate or consistent. However, it should be reasonably close and if not it needs attention.

I hear the Mirs have the 1/1000th speeds of the Zorki 4, and mine has the mystery dot setting. I was really hoping they could tell me if it's really 1/1000th. The guy told me the setting does nothing, but after what he did…I don't trust that after what he did.

The Mir does have 1/1000th, it's just not marked except by that dot. From what I understand (and I may not be right) the 1/1000th was not checked to ensure proper operation when the camera was made. Given that any Mir is old and may never have been serviced properly, or even at all, it's likely to be a lottery if it works or not. 1/1000th is the speed that really does require the camera to be in a good "state of tune". You can get an idea if it's working by firing the shutter with the back and lens off and looking through the shutter to see if there's any exposure. I'd try using it on your test roll too.

 

[keyofnight]

That suggests there's no inherent fault in the workings, which is good.

It could be in need of a CLA, no mechanical shutter is deadly accurate or consistent. However, it should be reasonably close and if not it needs attention.

The Mir does have 1/1000th, it's just not marked except by that dot. From what I understand (and I may not be right) the 1/1000th was not checked to ensure proper operation when the camera was made. Given that any Mir is old and may never have been serviced properly, or even at all, it's likely to be a lottery if it works or not. 1/1000th is the speed that really does require the camera to be in a good "state of tune". You can get an idea if it's working by firing the shutter with the back and lens off and looking through the shutter to see if there's any exposure. I'd try using it on your test roll too.

So…I got the camera from Yuri at Fedka.com. I was under the impression that these cameras came CLAed. Was I wrong? (; The rangefinder seemed nice and clean for a 55 year old camera, but the rest of the body had a little dust on it.

I'm pretty sure the guy was mishandling the camera the whole time as he measured the shutter speeds, so I have no idea what the speeds are. I know the 1/1000th fires, and it's at least as fast as 1/500th. (It looks the same to me, but at those speeds…I can't tell.)

I'll give it a shot.

Thanks guys. 🙂

 

[keyofnight]

Update: The Camera Shop Makes Good

Update: The Camera Shop Makes Good

I sent an e-mail to the camera shop after fielding comments from here, APUG, and the Zorki Flickr group. They sent back an email explaining that there wasn't any risk in changing the shutter speeds—which is correct for this camera. I responded by explaining if it were the model with the slow speeds, they might have busted it (and the underlings didn't know there was a difference in the first place). Best case scenario, they didn't know what speeds they were testing, so I didn't even know what they were testing.

The shop owner responded: "I'll make sure they test by changing the shutter speeds first from now on—there's no extra effort in doing it, so we might as well." He asked me to bring the camera in so he could test it himself. When he did, he got stable enough shutter speeds for his taste (he thought the 1/500 was going too fast until I told him there was a mystery 1/1000 right next to it).

He did tell me, however, that the shutter curtains are timed so that there is uneven exposure across the frame by ±1/3rd of a stop. He said it's probably something that cannot be adjusted out (changing it at one speed would make the problem worse on other speeds), and it shouldn't show up too much in pictures.

I emailed Yuri at Fedka.com, and he said he agrees: that's about as good as it gets. I'm inclined to agree, but I don't know squat about cameras.

What do you guys think? (;

 

[Frontman]

I sent an e-mail to the camera shop after fielding comments from here, APUG, and the Zorki Flickr group. They sent back an email explaining that there wasn't any risk in changing the shutter speeds—which is correct for this camera. I responded by explaining if it were the model with the slow speeds, they might have busted it (and the underlings didn't know there was a difference in the first place). Best case scenario, they didn't know what speeds they were testing, so I didn't even know what they were testing.

The shop owner responded: "I'll make sure they test by changing the shutter speeds first from now on—there's no extra effort in doing it, so we might as well." He asked me to bring the camera in so he could test it himself. When he did, he got stable enough shutter speeds for his taste (he thought the 1/500 was going too fast until I told him there was a mystery 1/1000 right next to it).

He did tell me, however, that the shutter curtains are timed so that there is uneven exposure across the frame by ±1/3rd of a stop. He said it's probably something that cannot be adjusted out (changing it at one speed would make the problem worse on other speeds), and it shouldn't show up too much in pictures.

I emailed Yuri at Fedka.com, and he said he agrees: that's about as good as it gets. I'm inclined to agree, but I don't know squat about cameras.

What do you guys think? (;

Shoot first, and ask questions later. I would do a film test to see if the camera works before getting it inspected by a repair person, particularly if that repair person had never handled that type of camera before. Some repair people cringe when they see an FSU camera, and would sooner pick up a dead rat than work on one.

Fedka's cameras generally work well enough out of the box. I have CLA'd a few FSU cameras, and I would be happy if they shot within 1/3of a stop. If your negatives come back with problems, then it's time to ask for help.