TenElevens Sonnar/Zeiss curiosities

My best performing 1950 Jupiter-3 was out of spec: the Focal Length was too short to focus across range when I converted it to Leica mount. It was originally in Contax mount, and could not go deep enough into the mount to focus at all. One of the few J-3's that I increased the distance between front/rear groups. The plus side: the glass is perfect as the lens could never be used. Zeiss serial numbers, 1945 production.

I've seen many transition lenses, ones that others call "fake". They are not. I have 5cm F1.5 in Leica mount that had an unfinished middle triplet- as in not properly polished. I replaced it with the middle triplet from a KMZ J-3, is a fine performer optically. The mount itself- lots of slop in the barrel, required heavy grease. I have one proper 285xxxx 5cm F1.5 that was full of sand and grit, the helical so worn down that I made a Sleeve for the mount to keep the lens centered as it was used. Worn front coating, but great images.

The Zeiss factory was in shambles after the War. What some call "fakes" are just the Zeiss workers Surviving.

Side-Note: 1956 marks the change-over in the J-3 from KMZ to ZOMZ. The design changes. I suspect that KMZ stopped manufacturing the J-3 when the supply of Schott glass was used up. The shape of the rear triplet changed, the fixture also changed. I'm been watching KMZ SN's go just past 5604xxx, have one on the way now.

Do you know how high KMZ Jupiter-3 Serial Numbers go up to?
 
Sonnar Brian said:
Raid- do you still have the 5cm F2 Sonnar with the J-8 rear triplet in it? The 5cm F2 is a fine performer, but is hard to find with a clean front element.
Click to expand...

I kept all your lenses, Brian. I must still have this special lens, but I want more lenses like them. Is the 5cm 2 lens for 1937~1938 somehow "special"?
 
s-l1600.jpg


s-l1600.jpg
 
TenEleven said:
Seconded. A good example is worth its weight in gold however. The above posted hour-glass one actually beats a super-clean collapsible Summicron 50mm f/2 (1.3mil serial) at all apertures and distances. Especially for corner sharpness. It's quite absurd.

Since we are already getting a bit off topic, Brian since you're probably the most Sonnar/Zeiss knowledgeable here - have you found that the early 'T' coated lenses - the coating isn't very hard and it seems to deteriorate in a way that actually negatively affects the performance of the lens?

Sometimes I got the lenses to perform much better by polishing it off. The batches starting with 2.6million seem to be most affected by this.
Click to expand...

Yes, they are worth a lot to me. I already have a 5cm 1.5 ltm lens that Brian gave me years ago. A Zeiss 5cm 1.5 in a J3 shell from 1938, I think. Getting now a Zeiss 5cm 2 from 1938 would make a good pair of lenses. Getting it from a private seller (from his father) may be safer than getting the lens from overseas from professional lens sellers. The lens has serial number 2271842
 
Sonnar Brian said:
My best performing 1950 Jupiter-3 was out of spec: the Focal Length was too short to focus across range when I converted it to Leica mount. It was originally in Contax mount, and could not go deep enough into the mount to focus at all. One of the few J-3's that I increased the distance between front/rear groups. The plus side: the glass is perfect as the lens could never be used. Zeiss serial numbers, 1945 production.

I've seen many transition lenses, ones that others call "fake". They are not. I have 5cm F1.5 in Leica mount that had an unfinished middle triplet- as in not properly polished. I replaced it with the middle triplet from a KMZ J-3, is a fine performer optically. The mount itself- lots of slop in the barrel, required heavy grease. I have one proper 285xxxx 5cm F1.5 that was full of sand and grit, the helical so worn down that I made a Sleeve for the mount to keep the lens centered as it was used. Worn front coating, but great images.

The Zeiss factory was in shambles after the War. What some call "fakes" are just the Zeiss workers Surviving.

Side-Note: 1956 marks the change-over in the J-3 from KMZ to ZOMZ. The design changes. I suspect that KMZ stopped manufacturing the J-3 when the supply of Schott glass was used up. The shape of the rear triplet changed, the fixture also changed. I'm been watching KMZ SN's go just past 5604xxx, have one on the way now.

Do you know how high KMZ Jupiter-3 Serial Numbers go up to?
Click to expand...

I have a 5605 J-3; the logo on the name ring is a triplet cemented element. Is that KMZ or ZOMZ? The lens is Contax/Kiev mount. Fascinating discussion.

I only have one "Brian" Sonnar -- 285xxxx LTM that he worked his magic on. I won't be parting with that.
 
When I look at a lens that was made in 1937 or 1938, I wonder who the part users of the lens were. Was this lens used during WWII? It is very interesting to me to own and use such old lenses.
 
KoNickon said:
I have a 5605 J-3; the logo on the name ring is a triplet cemented element. Is that KMZ or ZOMZ? The lens is Contax/Kiev mount. Fascinating discussion.

I only have one "Brian" Sonnar -- 285xxxx LTM that he worked his magic on. I won't be parting with that.
Click to expand...

The triplet logo is ZOMZ. I have a ZOMZ 5600256, have seen lower- so they started at 560001.

I'm happy to hear you still have the Sonnar. The wartime Sonnars are exceptional performers. Chris at Skyllaney has noted the same improved performance of these lenses, has been testing them. I suspect it's the glass- must have been reformulated to get the improved performance over the Sonnars made before ~1939.
 
Thanks for all that info, Brian. Yes, the Sonnar sits on one of my M3s pretty much permanently. I recall you thinking that the lens dated to the immediate postwar period, when manufacturing in Jena was pretty chaotic. I remember I got it from an older guy who was also selling a IIIf; someone else bought that. But the Sonnar was the prize. I forget how he came to own it -- probably stationed in Germany after the war.
 
raid said:
Do you recommend that I skip getting the 1937 Sonnar and look for a war time one?
Click to expand...

War-time f/2 Sonnars in good (meaning useful) condition are very very hard to find.
I'm sure that Brian will corroborate me on that. I'd go look for a f/1.5 in such a case. The f/2 formulation didn't change as much anyway - it was in flux for the first 2, 3 years where they went through a wide range of mounts and designs, but settled down once they reached the collapsible design.
 
This is good to know. I will keep my eyes open for a clean Zeiss 5cm 1.5 wartime Sonnar. I already have a sharp 5cm 1.5 from 1938 or so. I used it during a trip to Europe with a M 4/3 camera with focus assist and IS. The images came out very sharp and beautiful. Are 5cm 2 Sonnars from prewar times inferior to wartime ones?
 
I have a rare clean wartime Sonnar 5cm f/2 in aluminum collapsible mount. Actually it has been re-mounted into a brass shell by me, since the aluminum mount was in very poor condition, with big shifts to the optical axis resulting in involuntary tilt-shift pictures. The collapsible design didn't translate as well to aluminum alloy as the rigid one did.

Comparing the now repaired lens to its brothers I can say that other than the effect of the coatings (a slightly warmer color temperature, a very mild increase in overall contrast) - the lenses seems very much like-for-like compared to my older 1.7million and 1.9million collapsible f/2 Sonnar lenses.
 
Were the Elmar Sonnar modified lenses based on wartime glass? The images come out warm looking. I mean Zeiss Sonnar 5cm 2 lenses that were inserted into Elmar shells.
 
raid said:
Were the Elmar Sonnar modified lenses based on wartime glass? The images come out warm looking.
Click to expand...

I do believe so - all the ones I have seen fell into the 2.687xxx batch, finished in May 1940, which makes it war-time. This big batch of 5000 lenses seems to contain a lot of 'T' coated lenses and also some special one-offs. However sadly in my "Thiele" it only states that the exact record has gone missing.
 
How did Marc Small conclude that my lens was one out of 200 lenses that were traded to Sweden for iron ore? I love such stories or maybe historic facts.


00Ax9Q-21617784.jpg


00AxRY-21626784.jpg


00AxRa-21626884.jpg


I looked these up from an older photo.net thread on my lens. The lens cannot be collapsed. It is like a rigid lens to the best of my knowledge.
 
With regard to Wartime production of Zeiss lenses: I spent the last few hours taking apart the "basket case" wartime 5cm F1.5 Sonnar in Contax mount. This is a 272xxxx batch listed in Thiele as being completed in 1943. This one is in Contax mount, but is in the same batch as my original Leica mount Sonnar. This- basket case, but for $75- "No Complaints".

This is the second Sonnar that I've opened up with Balsam around the mounted middle triplet. The middle triplet is in tight, but being in such good condition- I'm not forcing it. Not as much loose balsam as the last one, but "I am Speculating" that the triplet was hot-mounted to allow the barrel to center the triplet. Other oddities: this lens does not have the hidden set screw holding the namering in place, as my Leica mount Sonnars have. The metal of the Contax mount is somewhat corroded, chrome finish is not as nice as the pre-war Sonnars. The ridging of the mount is wider than the pre-war lens, measured ~6.75mm versus 5.5mm for the pre-war lens. I have another "oddball" wartime Sonnar with a ~7mm wide grasp. The rear triplet is uncoated. The "T" pre-war lenses have fully coated optics. I've seen several wartime lenses with uncoated rear triplets. For this particular Sonnar: the rear triplet has suffered damage to the rear surface. This lens was assembled without using Shims: the variable stand-off ring was used to set spacing, The ring was slightly unscrewed and taps made to hold the ring into place. This was original to the lens: there is only one set of taps for the variable ring and one tap to hold the barrel into the mount. The front element had some coating damage, and some residual fungus marks. I'm replacing the front element with a proper coated front element from a parts lens made in the 268xxxx batch. I'm replacing the rear triplet with a KMZ coated optic. I'll mark the rear- the KMZ rear triplets are drop-in replacements for a wartime Sonnar.

I'm forming the opinion that Wartime production affected the build quality of the Zeiss lenses- and this might explain some of the damaged that occurs to the fixtures and optics. Pre-war lenses: the ones I see are generally in much better condition. Also- Use under severe conditions is a factor, given the 285xxxx lens that I took apart. Don't know where the sand and grit is from, could be the Sahara. Should have saved it.

Postscript! I just finished testing the "basket case" Sonnar. Middle triplet and optical fixtures in good shape, cleaned them up. Replaced the front element with one from a 1939 5cm F1.5 Sonnar "T" that was incomplete, front element shows some of the mottling that we've discussed, but not as much as the original of this 272xxxx lens. Rear triplet from a 1953 KMZ Jupiter-3, coated- fits perfectly into the Zeiss fixture. How did it all work out? Perfect focus with the lens occurs when the Aperture lines up with the Aperture Dot of the pre-war mount that I placed it into. I'm amazed- usually something is off when making changes like this. This means the focal lengths of the new optics was extremely close. Certain proof "to me" that the KMZ rear triplets are Schott glass, and usually Zeiss cut.
 
TenEleven said:
War-time f/2 Sonnars in good (meaning useful) condition are very very hard to find.
I'm sure that Brian will corroborate me on that. I'd go look for a f/1.5 in such a case. The f/2 formulation didn't change as much anyway - it was in flux for the first 2, 3 years where they went through a wide range of mounts and designs, but settled down once they reached the collapsible design.
Click to expand...

Completely agree with this! The 5cm F1.5 uses hard glass for the front element.

The 5cm f2 Sonnar has a soft front element- and the 5cm f2 Sonnar "T" is uncommon, and almost impossible to find in clean condition. I have one converted to Leica mount, and converted a second one to Leica mount. My 1934 5cm F2 - bought years ago on a Nikon M- is my best.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom