Leica M11 Information

boojum said:
I have not been following this discussion about someone's belief in the afterlife. There are so many faiths which aver connections with the departed and messages and directions from them that to condemn one means you are close to condemning them all. The Bill of Rights covers this and while some might not agree with it the BoR is the law of the land. Further, I really do not give a fig about any beliefs someone has if they can speak knowledgeably on the subject they consider themselves experts on. No, this does not mean I endorse tyrants, monsters, lunatic cult leaders or so on. I just support any and all to believe whatever they wish so long as they harm no one so doing. As usual, YMMV. But wait, isn't this about the M11? Let's get on with that and start another thread for metaphysics, philosophy, religion and associated ideas. Sounds like a plan to me.
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Without proof I happily condemn anyone who charges people money to talk to the dead, accepted religions included. I consider that objective harm. Belief in the feasible but unprovable is different.

Thankfully, The Bill of Rights does not operate where I live and one cannot hide cynical money making lies behind a veil of ‘free speech’ or ‘freedom of religion’.

I think I have explained my views enough. I’m done on this.
 
Back to the Petapixel article - it’s good. An interesting viewpoint that I have some empathy with, ‘though it appears that rangefinders have been with me for far longer. But, yes, they offer a different way of seeing the world that many of us prefer.

I confess to supporting Leica AG by the purchase of an M-A and that in itself means the ‘11’ must wait. I hope people do buy them though and that 60Mp can be handheld without IBIS. It’s not really that much more resolution than an M10r and less real resolution than an M10m
 
It seems me the logical evolution of the M10. Same basic concept, improved technology. I wish Leica a success with it. Personalyy as satisfied user of the "old" M10 I do not need to upgrade.

But it is nice to have choices and with the Ms, the SLs. the Q and the aps cameras Leica can cover many different needs and desires for the photographers.
 
Benjamin Marks said:
Absolutely! ^^^^^ This. I don't get all the negativity. I really don't. It does seem to me like the jump in resolution from my M9 to the M11 is enough to matter. And I want Leica around to keep making products that I like. They are a tiny company and can use all the wins that they can get. In fact, I would posit the fact that they are so small is related, in part, to their high prices.

So if you all are so unhappy (or unimpressed) with the advent of this new camera, what do you actually want them to do?

BTW, if you have good high ISO performance, why do you need IBIS? I have it in a bunch of cameras, and it is not a panacea.
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1) State what type of glass was used for the IR cut filter. "Sandwiched" cover glass is used when the bottom layer must be isolated from Humidity. The M9 and M Monochrom used a type of glass that was sealed against humidity. This caused a lot of problems.

2) Put a traditional meter into the camera for Rangefinder mode. This cuts down on shutter latency, requires less power to operate, and does not heat the sensor. Noise on a sensor is related to temperature. Lower temperature means less noise.

The M11 strikes me as a Mirrorless Camera with an auxiliary rangefinder built in. I suspect that we will see a version of this camera with the Electronic Viewfinder in place of the rangefinder. Swap out the top plate, use the Visoflex connections, put in the EVF. Less cost than the rangefinder mechanism, nothing else needs to change.
 
Congrats to Leica for creating a new M...looks like a power house work horse for some.
Very Cool to those that will acquire her.


Miss M11 probably would be lost on Me...

I am not looking for 'Perfection' in a camera, sometimes I do even prefer to work with limitations
I grew up with neopan1600 and LOVED it ... silly me could never master developing and creating a 'look' with 3200 film

So I have come to realize 'Perfection' is not for me...

I still enjoy tempting fate & my chances shooting a 21 f3.4 lens at night be it on film and digital
24 MP is probably sweet enough for my needs, HUGE prints I find cold and a bore, whatever happens in low light as long as it has rich inky blacks and 'Atmosphere' suits me just fine. The Mystery and Beauty of Imperfection is what drives me to shoot.

Look forward to seeing and hearing about the M11 journey ~
 
At least you guy's are giving the new camera a chance, over on Facebook oh brother it's a hot mess over there. People complaining
about the baseplate, too many pixels so it's a landscape camera and not a street camera anymore. look at it this way now with all the
camera companies digital is an upgrade thing and that's what we have now. I'm sure the one's who purchase it are going to love
it.
 
ptpdprinter said:
I am no software engineer, but "interpolated" sounds lossy to me. Isn't "interpolate" a fancy word for "fabricate"? Of course, you can have lossless compression after the interpolation. You can have lossless compression of a jpg too, but jpgs are already so compressed you are probably not going to decrease the file size very much.
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Interpolation is a fancy word because it describes a mathematical model used to estimate the two missing color values for each pixels. The word estimate here means computing parameter vales for each pixel. The results of all measurements are estimates. All estimates have uncertainties because measurements are not perfect. Also, as signal-to-noise decreases, estimate uncertainty increases.

As Freakscene mentioned, interpolation is not fabrication. In fact, every color image from a Bayer or XTrans sensor assembly is constructed using interpolation algorithms. There are many interpolation methods available to to render images from Bayer raw-files data. The mathematics behind these are published. Camera manufacturors and companies who sell image rendering applications don't publish their proprietary methods. Interpolation does not imply capricious, prejudicial, arbitrary or deceptive results.

Leica M DNG files use lossless compression algorithms defined by the open source DNG standard. This has nothing to do with differences between M11 L-DNG, M-DNG and S-DNG files.
 
What is Leica accomplishing by offering L-DNG, M-DNG and S-DNG file options?

The M11 is the first Leica camera to use pixel binning. (link) Leica chose to use the phrase "Triple Resolution Technology" instead of pixel binning.

Pixel binning electronically combines pixels in the analog stage of measurement. The result is similar to increasing the full-well capacity of an individual photo site. When four pixels are combined, the maximum possible signal level increases four fold. Pixel binning increases signal-to-noise ratio at the expense of resolution.

Pixel binning is used by other high MP cameras and in many smart phones. Pixel binning is also common in microscopy and astrophotography.


Pixel Binning Advantages
  • Higher SNR - You will read phrases like "lower noise" or "less noise" in reviews and scissions about M11 M-DNG. and S-DNG images. This is sloppy usage at best. The advantage is the signal level increases.
  • Higher dynamic range - The maximum possible dynamic range is related to the SNR. Four binned pixels mean a four-fold increase in photoelectron production before exceeding the full-well capacity for a single pixel.
  • Matching system MTF50 to lens MTF50 - many lenses can not take full advantage of the resolution available with a L-DNG file. Pixel binning means lenses with MTF50s below the sensor assembly MTF50 lenses can take advantage of the SNR increase offered by M-DNG and S-DNG.
  • Match sensor assembly resolution to scene/subject detail - why use all 60 MP for a scenes or subjects that don't require high resolution? Instead increase perceived image quality by maximizing SNR.
  • Minimize the effects of camera motion - You will read lots of criticism about the M11's lack of IBIS. It is true a 60 MP sensor means camera motion is valid concern - which is the reason other cameras with 60 MP or greater sensors have IBIS. However this criticism ignores the fact that M-DNG and S-DNG mean hand-held shutter times can be similar to those used with 36 and 18 MP cameras. Of course a 36 or 18 MP camera with IBIS offers longer the advantage of even longer hand-held shutter times. But IBIS also requires more body space, cost and energy consumption.
  • Smaller raw file sizes - Automated image burst rates are higher with M-DNG and S-DNG.
By offering three lossless DNG file options Leica has maximized the utility of a high resolution sensor. The photographer can chose the optimum resolution, SNR/DR and file size for the task at hand.
 
willie_901 said:
By offering three lossless DNG file options Leica has maximized the utility of a high resolution sensor. The photographer can chose the optimum resolution, SNR/DR and file size for the task at hand.
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I am glad that Leica adopted a 60MP sensor. And even though it adds an item to the menu, the choice of RAW sizes looks like it will be beneficial to certain segments of photographers. I applaud Leica on its technical achievements. I would love to have an M11. But let's not go overboard with the ad copy. I am not sure how offering "three lossless DNG file options maximizes the utility of a high resolution sensor"? Does three choices really "maximize" utility? Wouldn't four or five options be better? How about 60 options, you know, options in 1MP increments? And can the photographer really "chose the optimum resolution, SNR/DR and file size for the task at hand"? Is the optimum resolution, etc. for the task at hand always one of the three options offered by Leica. It is entirely possible that, for example, 17MP or 19MP, not 18MP, would be optimum in a given circumstance? I know you are excited, but doesn't this kind of hyperbole really belong only in Leica marketing materials?
 
He has an interest in the after life..
Just investigating..
Whats wrong w/that?
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There is a difference between investigating and taking money from people for a small amplifier with some lights and a receiver. I mention this whenever its author comes up.
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It's probably fake..but so what..its kinda fun..
A cool concept..and perhaps..a test for those that are easily taken..
Leica sorta does the same too..$15K+ investment for an M11 w/1 lens and aux viewfinder..
And then..same ole pics...as you took with el cheapo $200- camera..
Leica are experts...at selling the fantasy..
Sure..everybody is on the take..and has to turn some kind of profit..if they want to pay the rent.
And..there are cooler and not so cool ways to do this..
But..I've seen worse..much..worse..in everyday life..
Than Steve Huff..and his after life..gizmo..
 
Sonnar Brian said:
1) State what type of glass was used for the IR cut filter. "Sandwiched" cover glass is used when the bottom layer must be isolated from Humidity. The M9 and M Monochrom used a type of glass that was sealed against humidity. This caused a lot of problems.

2) Put a traditional meter into the camera for Rangefinder mode. This cuts down on shutter latency, requires less power to operate, and does not heat the sensor. Noise on a sensor is related to temperature. Lower temperature means less noise.

The M11 strikes me as a Mirrorless Camera with an auxiliary rangefinder built in. I suspect that we will see a version of this camera with the Electronic Viewfinder in place of the rangefinder. Swap out the top plate, use the Visoflex connections, put in the EVF. Less cost than the rangefinder mechanism, nothing else needs to change.
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hi Brian!
so the M11 operates always like the M10 when live view is activated? half pressing the shutter button opens the curtain to let the sensor be used as meter?
I really hope they found a way to make this process less chunky than on my m10r...

by the way this M11 seems a real beast!
 
I really have to stay off Facebook's M camera site's it's getting real bad they have a poll now of what's better
a Leica with a bottom cover and no bottom cover (like the M11), it's funny half these people don't have and
won't even purchase one and they complain about it, give me a break I'll just stay here.
 
I'm surprised the Silver Model (with brass top-plate) vs. Black Model (with aluminum top-plate) discussion hasn't arisen.

I would have liked to see a black-enamel/brass version.
 
luuca said:
hi Brian!
so the M11 operates always like the M10 when live view is activated? half pressing the shutter button opens the curtain to let the sensor be used as meter?
I really hope they found a way to make this process less chunky than on my m10r...

by the way this M11 seems a real beast!
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I believe that the shutter stays open for the meter to operate- so like the M10 in liveview.. The sensor operates when activated by the two-position shutter switch.

This could be revised in firmware. I'd like to see an "M2 Mode", close the shutter, do not meter, take a picture when the shutter release is pressed. Lower latency, less power draw, and heeps the sensor temperature at a minimum. Use a handheld meter.
 
David_Manning said:
BTW pixel binning is considered bad, ie "sharpness-killing" in video.
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The choices they’ve made are interesting. If they’d simply used pixel binning to combine a 2x2 arrays they would have had a full colour 15 Mp image. Comparable to a 15Mp Bayer output as the Pentax K1 multi shot is to single frame. So better signal to noise in luminance and full colour resolution. However, I’ve not worked through the process to go from 60Mp to 36 and then on to 18.

In general, I’d expect that the lower photo site count images should have improved quality over a bayer image of the same size. Otoh, I suspect that (even if I were to buy one in the end) I wouldn’t worry to much and may never use it…

Now, back to the M4;)
 
jsrockit said:
And what exactly is wrong with keeping it because you might need it later? That is just smart for some purposes. I just do not understand those who think because they do not need it, others do not either.
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Absolutely nothing wrong with it. That's what I would do myself. My point was that I'll bet most purchasers will hardly ever use this downsampling feature -- why should they? It's not like SD cards are bulky or expensive -- but they'll feel good knowing it's there.

I remember reading about a psychology experiment in the '50s. Subjects, sitting in a small booth working on difficult math problems, were interrupted at random intervals by a loud, distracting noise. One group was told to just do the best they could. The other group was shown a small knob and told that, although the experimenters would prefer that they try to ignore the noise, they could use the knob to turn it down if necessary. The second group did much better on the math problems -- even though none of them ever touched the knob. Just knowing they had some control over the situation improved their performance.
 
Range-rover said:
At least you guy's are giving the new camera a chance, over on Facebook oh brother it's a hot mess over there. People complaining
about the baseplate, too many pixels so it's a landscape camera and not a street camera anymore. look at it this way now with all the
camera companies digital is an upgrade thing and that's what we have now. I'm sure the one's who purchase it are going to love
it.
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What a glass-half-empty bunch. The new sensor tech means that the M11 can shoot highly detailed landscapes etc, then go to a smaller resolution and even higher dynamic range for street work. The new battery gets rid of the headache of having to remove whatever grip or half case to change battery or memory card. Internal memory of 64GB in case of emergency or for double image backup, revamped EVF, much longer battery life, controls and menus in line with the SL2 and Q2, the M11 has a lot going for it. And Leica have brought back M9 colour! If it was in my budget right now, I'd probably be at my local dealer.
 
ranger9 said:
Absolutely nothing wrong with it. That's what I would do myself. My point was that I'll bet most purchasers will hardly ever use this downsampling feature -- why should they? It's not like SD cards are bulky or expensive -- but they'll feel good knowing it's there.

I remember reading about a psychology experiment in the '50s. Subjects, sitting in a small booth working on difficult math problems, were interrupted at random intervals by a loud, distracting noise. One group was told to just do the best they could. The other group was shown a small knob and told that, although the experimenters would prefer that they try to ignore the noise, they could use the knob to turn it down if necessary. The second group did much better on the math problems -- even though none of them ever touched the knob. Just knowing they had some control over the situation improved their performance.
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And M11 owners knowing that "this downsampling feature" is available will cause exactly what improvement in their performance? That they will make better photographs? If that were the case, wouldn't Leica implement dozens of menu choices like the other manufacturers?
 
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