ptpdprinter
Veteran
OMG! The Hasselblad X2D comes with a Hasselblad promotional pen! The Leica M11 doesn't come with a Leica promotional pen, so the Hasselblad X2D wins! I'm going to buy two.
Hasselblad X2D, Just out. M11 Killer?
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OMG! The Hasselblad X2D comes with a Hasselblad promotional pen! The Leica M11 doesn't come with a Leica promotional pen, so the Hasselblad X2D wins! I'm going to buy two.
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
I have no doubt that some folks enjoy anachronisms. I do not know the reasons. I am not wed to the M series so the size and weight differences mean little to me. Hasselblad thinks so, too. I am not gearing up for an Appalachian Trail backpack. I travel the longer distances by automobile. The shorter ones I walk and the really long ones there is the overcrowded airplane option. A quick consult of camera sales indicates that not many enjoy squinting into tiny windows to match tinier images just for the joy of doing so to produce less than optimal images. Whoopee, a small camera. A small difficult to use camera.
My whole point of starting this thread is to draw attention to what is happening at the more technically refined end of the camera world that is not made out of plastic. There are a lot of sophisticated cameras available with lenses to match. The X2D seems an interesting direction at an interesting price. You can bet Herr Doktor Kaufmann and his crew have taken note. Will that supposed new film camera be sold to their own current customers or new customers? Ask the same about the X2D. I think the X2D will attract new customers. I may be entirely wrong about this, not the first time. But I have brought it forward to be assailed and discussed and that was my hope. Thank you all.
Has anyone done a UV Sensitivity test on the M11? I've seen one user with an M11 and a 50/0.95 Noctilux exhibiting "Purple Haze", like what I get with the M9 with fast lenses. I use a UV filter with the lens, which mostly eliminates the problem. Kodak published the spectral response of the M9, so the problem was well documented. The M11 uses a Bask Side Illuminated sensor, which is much more sensitive to UV and Infrared. I suspect this is the reason why the M10, M10r, and M10m used front-side illuminated sensors. You are limited to using a thin filter stack with M-Mount.
I posted this to the inquiry for purple haze with the Noctilux on the M11: The M9 used "Back Side Illuminated" sensors. The M11 also uses a Back Side Illuminated sensor. From a Description of BSI CMOS Sensors: Back-illuminated technology has been available for scientific CCD detectors for many years. Due to their higher sensitivity over a broader spectral region (deep-UV to near-IR), The M10 (all) use Front-Side Illuminated CMOS, so less sensitive to UV.
I posted this to the inquiry for purple haze with the Noctilux on the M11: The M9 used "Back Side Illuminated" sensors. The M11 also uses a Back Side Illuminated sensor. From a Description of BSI CMOS Sensors: Back-illuminated technology has been available for scientific CCD detectors for many years. Due to their higher sensitivity over a broader spectral region (deep-UV to near-IR), The M10 (all) use Front-Side Illuminated CMOS, so less sensitive to UV.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
If you’d like to find out what users of the X2D are experiencing with it, you’d be much better off asking “Who’s got a Hasselblad X2D? What do you think of it so far?” rather than posing some utter nonsense like “X2D is an M11 killer?”
G
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
Au contraire, this has provoked a great deal of comment. Some of it is based on fact. I just posted a lengthy Swiss review with pics. They are few as the camera will not be released to the public until September 15. As this is the case and it is today 10 September what is the use of asking who has the X2D and how they like it? Perhaps you can explain that. It eludes me as to how folks can have usage impressions of what they do not have. However there is an abundance of impressions here of what folks do not have. Must I repeat the trope about contempt prior to investigation? To quote Eliot via Prufrock, "Do not ask 'What is it' let us go and make our visit."
I am quite interested in the image quality, already acknowledged as superior to Leica, the camera quality and how well it functions. I have watched user reviews on YT. I'd like to see what mere mortals think and can wait. Hopefully I am not the only one who can bide their time.
Thanks for your interest.
ptpdprinter
Veteran
Well, if some guy said it on YouTube, it must be true. That's how I learned that the dinosaurs are a hoax.
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
Here is an opinion on Leica vs Hasselblad. No discussion of dinosaurs, though. Maybe in another thread about anachronisms.
I've read that Leica has discontinued the 14464 battery for the M8, M9, and M Monochrom. After-Market batteries that lack the microcontroller will not work with the M9 and M Monochrom due to the firmware in those cameras. I just ordered Two Leica batteries from the only shop that I could find that had them in stock. My local authorized Leica dealer does not advertise them on the website anymore. I also ordered a third-party battery that claims it has the microcontroller.
The batteries that Leica had made in China are very poor quality, I have one that failed after 18 months, much like the cheap third part Ebay $20 batteries. The original batteries that came with the M8, M9, and M Monochrom lasted about 8 years. I don't know if the problem is quality control, or Leica just does not want to make batteries for the cameras anymore. Or if they want to force people to "upgrade". I will be pissed if they just decided to discontinue them, after locking the firmware to shut the camera down if using a third party battery. They will be the last Leica cameras I ever buy. I can probably disassemble the battery packs that failed and replace the cells. But- that's not the point. I can understand not being able to replace CCD's, the world stopped making them. But discontinuing a battery when there are thousands of cameras with new sensors and boards in them? I can get batteries for my Nikon D1 and other digital cameras that are much older than my M Monochrom.
The "Disposable Digital Camera" is the new norm. I do not expect that from Leica. For me, that is the M11 killer. The requirement for very thin sensor stacks may be the killer for the digital M line, or at least to everyone adverse to using a UV and/or IR filter on a lens. The purple haze on the pictures taken with the Noctilux on the M11 was very pronounced..
The batteries that Leica had made in China are very poor quality, I have one that failed after 18 months, much like the cheap third part Ebay $20 batteries. The original batteries that came with the M8, M9, and M Monochrom lasted about 8 years. I don't know if the problem is quality control, or Leica just does not want to make batteries for the cameras anymore. Or if they want to force people to "upgrade". I will be pissed if they just decided to discontinue them, after locking the firmware to shut the camera down if using a third party battery. They will be the last Leica cameras I ever buy. I can probably disassemble the battery packs that failed and replace the cells. But- that's not the point. I can understand not being able to replace CCD's, the world stopped making them. But discontinuing a battery when there are thousands of cameras with new sensors and boards in them? I can get batteries for my Nikon D1 and other digital cameras that are much older than my M Monochrom.
The "Disposable Digital Camera" is the new norm. I do not expect that from Leica. For me, that is the M11 killer. The requirement for very thin sensor stacks may be the killer for the digital M line, or at least to everyone adverse to using a UV and/or IR filter on a lens. The purple haze on the pictures taken with the Noctilux on the M11 was very pronounced..
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
Thanks for the 14464 battery heads-up. So far I have had good luck with the China-copy batteries so I ordered three more. I have a bunch already but you remember what Mom always told us, "You just can't have too many 14464 batteries."
Richard G
Veteran
Thanks. Just bought 2 online. I’ve had to replace both chargers of two cameras M9-P an MM just recently.
Nostalgia, habit, preference, a different way of seeing, etc.
Just last week you were going on and on about your M9 and about buying an M9-P. You just bought a Pixii.
But Hasselblad is not new. They have been a luxury brand for a long time too. We are all aware of their history. I think they are making very cool cameras. I do not buy $9000 cameras though. For medium format I use the Fujifilm GFX50R and i am satisfied. It is like a dinosaur compare to this new Hasselblad. I cannot imagine anything being bad enough to hold you back from buying it if you are this enamored with it.
I am pretty sure they know Hasselblad and its history. I agree the Hasselblad certainly will attract new customers. I am just not sure it is Leica M customers. I would think they gain some Fuji customers, some Phase One customers and maybe Leica S customers. Let us not forget that Leica has made and will be making medium format cameras as well. Here: https://leica-camera.com/en-int/phot...ras/s/s3-black
I think they may make something very close to this new Hasselblad in the near future.
nickthetasmaniac
Veteran
I am more than a little puzzled by this thread... You don't like anachronisms. You don't care about size and weight. Your primary concern appears to be absolute image quality. Obviously a mechanical 35mm rangefinder is not for you. If you want a X2H go nuts! But I don't get why the M11 is even part of the discussion?
I'd be interested if someone could test the M11 for UV leakage and IR leakage. The image I saw suffered from "Purple Haze". It was not chromatic aberration as the photographer thought. It looked like out-of-visible-band contamination. It could be something else, but it was not chromatic aberration on the 50/0.95. Leica would not have been able to sell any if it was.
There is no technical information on the filter stack on the M11, just "UV filter Epoxied to IR filter". No information on how thick, how effective, or the type of filter- whether reflective, absorbing, or some other hybrid.
There is no technical information on the filter stack on the M11, just "UV filter Epoxied to IR filter". No information on how thick, how effective, or the type of filter- whether reflective, absorbing, or some other hybrid.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/126826...5/52125042200/
Looking on Flickr for M11 images, the above was taken with the 35mm APO-Summicron. Sun glint in the image. Reflections that are in-focus show some purple fringing.
It would be interesting for someone to use an R72 filter with their M11 and post the results. The M8 has high response, the M9 with S8612 had very, very little response.
Looking on Flickr for M11 images, the above was taken with the 35mm APO-Summicron. Sun glint in the image. Reflections that are in-focus show some purple fringing.
It would be interesting for someone to use an R72 filter with their M11 and post the results. The M8 has high response, the M9 with S8612 had very, very little response.
raydm6
Yay! Cameras! 🙈🙉🙊┌( ಠ_ಠ)┘ [◉"]
Some sample before/after images here...and a review.
Leica M11 for Wedding Photography - Full Review and Sample Images
Leica M11 for Wedding Photography - Full Review and Sample Images
I hope the Groom in the set of images at the end of the Blog Entry was wearing a deep purple suit: that is the color you get when using an M8 without an IR cut filter when photographing Black suits.
Given the history of Leica M cameras and cover glass on their sensors, I'm surprised that no one actually tested the M11 for UV and IR sensitivity, nor pushed Leica for more details about their new solution for the problem.
Given the history of Leica M cameras and cover glass on their sensors, I'm surprised that no one actually tested the M11 for UV and IR sensitivity, nor pushed Leica for more details about their new solution for the problem.
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
All interesting comments. Yes, I agree that much of Leica sales is due to nostalgia. As for the M9/M9-P, yes, that was a considered option and still is. I really like how the M9's handle images. And for me that is the game and what it is about. I don't care a fig about using a camera that the greats have used. That is not a considered priority. Image is it. Which is why I like autofocus. RF is nostalgic fun but autofocus gets it done. I drive an old Citroën 2CV for nostalgic fun. It is not my daily driver and is more a garage queen. My driven daily driver is an old 2001 Honda Insight hybrid. It is a computer with and engine and motor and wheels. And I get in the high fifties to low sixties for MPG. It cost me less than an M9. The Pixii is interesting. Its images are not the same as the M9 but are very good, they have a more pastel cast with the Amotal and are sill soft with the CV lenses. Hopefully David Barth will hook up with me in TeamViewer and work his magic to get it working as it should. Aside from its puny shutter sound and painfully slow writing of JPG's it is a swell camera. When the firmware is updated perhaps it can write JPG's faster. DNG's are fine.
I have followed Hasselblad for as long as I have had a "real" film camera, around 1955. I have always admired the design of the SLR, a fine box and lens, reduced to the minimum and pure, solid quality. But large format film was not what I wanted nor did I ever see a digital option of interest. Then this X2D came on the scene and checked a lot of boxes of interest. Functionally it is not really that much larger than the M's. I know the Leica Acolyte Choir will swell with indignation about this but that is their role, isn't it? "Indignation" and "Protect the Marque." That strutting puffery sways me not. It amuses.
But back to the X2D: it seems a workable size camera for folks used to a 35mm camera, especially those using the honking big Japanese ones. It has a reputation for superb imaging. It has a reputation for rugged dependability. It is faithful, trofast in Swedish. How many other cameras were used on the moon's surface? https://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2019/02/leica-cameras-used-by-nasa.html It appears to be a "git 'er done" camera with superb color and detail and all in a reasonable package. Those are the pluses for me. The downside is that it costs. And yes, my two old chestnut adages for spending money apply here: "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?" and "Quality is like oats. If you want clean, fresh oats you must pay a fair price. If you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse, those are cheaper." It is a quandary.
I started this thread to ask a question and have been flayed for apostasy. I was wondering if I had titled it, "M11, the X2D KIller?" what the response would have been. Do you think it would have been the same?
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
Thanks for asking. I do care about size and weight, I care a great deal. But to me the weight and size differences between the M11 and the X2D are not of consequence. For some folks 8 ounces is a big deal. It is not for me. If it were strapped to an ankle it would be. It would not be strapped to an ankle.
A mechanical rangefinder is fine for me when it sits above a CCD sensor. And I was interested in Leica so I took the plunge with an M8.2 and later with an M9. Some like the Leica rangefinders. To me they are like a cheesy arcade games of "Match the Images." That is my opinion. I bought the cameras. I am entitled to the opinion. I have not dug it out but I would wager a mortgage payment that the split screen range finder on my old Pentax K1000 is better than the Leica. And faster. And what is the purpose of a rangefinder? I think the rub is that I am not enthralled by Leicas. They are just tools. How well do they do their job? On a snapshot sunny day they do OK. I do some stuff at night and they work like crap then. Maybe it is my aged eyes, maybe not.
Now the question of the M11 and the X2D: price and sensor. In each case the kit costs about the same but the Hasselblad is a bit cheaper. So, what will $12K - $13K get you in the camera world? I see it as a choice between a well crafted yesterday and a well crafted today. The M's, Barnack Leicas, are just shy of a century old. Yes they have been improved. Ford is making better four wheeled internal combustion engine cars now, too. But those cars have changed a lot. Leicas have not. What we buy today is pretty much what came out in 1924 but it has been refined, period. Some folks really like this. Both cameras have large sensors and fine imaging. So if you have $13K burning a hole in your pocket are you more interested in yesterday or today? Which camera is more of interest? The one of basics limning past glories or the one with the bells and whistles which will get you closer to the finish line much more often? You are in Las Vegas, you are standing by the roulette wheel, where are you going to put your money?
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
Great review. I think you would do well with an old Argus C3, too. It is the painter not the brush. I agree with you about the M11. It is a masterpiece of a camera and apparently cranks out great images and is the usual well-crafted Leica. My wonderment is whether or not it is the best $13K spent. Perhaps the X2D is not for wedding photographers because it is clumsier, that is to say slower shooting and heavier. The weight for most would be trivial, but for a wedding photographer dragging a camera around all day and moving at speeds just shy of the speed of light it is another question. Every gram saved is noticed. You must be bushed when you pack up your gear and head home. So I cannot disagree with anything you have said. I do confess to smirking when you said you had to depend on a DSLR for the recessional shots, though. Bad me. ;o) I'll work on it. It's that damned streak of cussedness I cannot seem to shake.
Thanks for your thoughts.
dexdog
Veteran
I think that review needs the sentence "This is a paid political announcement" in a really tiny 6 point font at the bottom of the screen in the last 5 seconds of the video. 🙄
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