What M or L lenses will give you swirly/bubbly bokeh?

[ravenxarmy]

I'm a big fan of the CZJ Biotar 58mm F2. Huge fan.
The Soviet Helios (copy of the Biotar) is great too. Unfortunately I'm not the biggest fan of the cameras it attaches to. I used it with the old Edixa but I can't stand operating those early SLRs. I bought Bessaflex recently to improve the experience, and while A LOT better than Edixa, it turns out the back element of the Biotar hits the Bessa's mirror. So that turned out to be a fool's errand.

So... what's the best M/L equivalent of the Biotar then? Swirly bokeh and all.

I know there are quite a few CANON 50mm F.95 lenses which were converted to M mount knocking about but while the bubbly swirly effect is there the size and price are both huge. Anyone with any slightly more modest ideas?

Please let me know so that I can sell the M42 and move on...

 

[Zuiko-logist]

It depends on how much swirl. The J8 and Summarit come to mind.

 

[ravenxarmy]

It depends on how much swirl. The J8 and Summarit come to mind.

The more the better 🙂
Summarit is still pretty tame. Jupiter 8 is a good call. Anything crazier than that out there?

 

[Erik van Straten]

Great article here!

Light Lens Lab copy of the Cooke Speed Panchro S2 50mm f/2

Light Lens Lab copy of the Cooke Speed Panchro S2 50mm f/2. Replicating a classic cine lens for use on M-mount cameras

www.macfilos.com

LLL is going to make a Speed Pancro (copy)!

Erik.

 

[ravenxarmy]

I've seen a video advertising that lens on youtube a while back. It looks very interesting but also expensive and hard to obtain. Anything I could buy tomorrow?
I'm almost happy with Summitar to be honest but it tends to break everything down to very small scattered pieces. I need something with more panache. Like the Biotar. I'm starting to think the Canon is beginning to look reasonable.

 

[Erik van Straten]

I've seen a video advertising that lens on youtube a while back. It looks very interesting but also expensive and hard to obtain. Anything I could buy tomorrow?
I'm almost happy with Summitar to be honest but it tends to break everything down to very small scattered pieces. I need something with more panache. Like the Biotar. I'm starting to think the Canon is beginning to look reasonable.

A Summar or an Amotal are good too, but you need a near perfect copy - hard to find. A Summitar is also good, but mine has a firm distortion (barrel).

Erik.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The Jupiter-8 and most 50mm Sonnars- Coma more than Footballs, not very swirly.

For the money, The Minolta Chiyoko 5cm F2 is the best. Most use 43mm filters, earliest use 40.5mm filters. This is a 7 element in 4 group, similar to the Summitar. It is Rigid mount, coated optics. The Minolta uses two air-spaced groups rather than cemented groups.

Minolta Chiyoko 5cm F2- Took one Apart

I've seen this lens listed as 7 elements in 4 groups, like a Summitar AND I've seen this lens listed as 7 elements in 6 groups. The early version of the lens takes 40.5mm filters, the later takes 43mm filters. I have a perfect condition late one, no need to take apart. Found a very early one on...

rangefinderforum.com

Classic lenses:
Summar 50/2
Summitar 50/2
Xenon 50/1.5
Summitar 50/1/5
Minolta Chiyoko 50/2

Minolta- wide-open,


New lenses- 50/1.5 Nokton v2.



At this point- probably best for the OP to post a sample image of the desired look of the lens.
The Canon 50/0.95 - I never considered mine to produce swirly bokeh. "Swirlies" are mostly produced by Astigmatism in a lens.



The harsh edges: spherical aberration.

 

[ravenxarmy]

Chiyoko sounds interesting.
I looked it up and there are several iterations:

Minolta Chiyoko Super Rokkor 5cm F2
Chiyoko sounds interesting.
I looked it up and there are several iterations:

Minolta Chiyoko Super Rokkor 5cm F1.8
Minolta Chiyoko Super Rokkor 5cm F2
Minolta Chiyoko Super Rokkor 5cm F2.8

are all of them swirly or just the F2?
I couldn't find many sample inages on google.
F1.8 looks like a newer iteration.

Someone just messaged me the Voigtlander Heliar Classic 50mm f/1.5 suggestion.
I googled some images, it looks more bubbly than swirly...

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The 45/2.8- swirlies, but is F2.8 max aperture. Plus, I just like this picture...

And the Minolta 5cm F1.8, this is a 6 element in 5 group lens- similar to the Summicron Rig V2 of the 1960s, but the Minolta came first.

 

[Zuiko-logist]

I think there is a Lensbaby with adjustable swirl but maybe not the optical quality.

 

[Erik van Straten]

I have the Heliar Classic 50mm f/1.5. Indeed more bubbly than swirly. At full aperture the image is nice, but hard to discribe, dream like.

The Summar is swirly, the bubbles are oval and sharply defined, with a bright edge around them, very characteristic.

here:

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Leica Summar, wide-open.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

This is with my 1934 5cm F2 Sonnar, also wide-open. Brought for a Sonnar-Summar day at the park.
The Sonnar is the lens the J-8 is designed from. The Bertele Sonnar, recreates this lens.
Mine is converted to LTM, min focus of ~0.8m.

Coma and over-correction for spherical aberration define the Bokeh.
Comets versus Footballs.

 

[ravenxarmy]

At this point- probably best for the OP to post a sample image of the desired look of the lens.
The Canon 50/0.95 - I never considered mine to produce swirly bokeh. "Swirlies" are mostly produced by Astigmatism in a lens.

75 and 58 Biotars:



And the .95 Canon can get pretty swirly as you can see here:

Sony A7 with Canon 50mm f/0.95 Dream Lens

Sony A7 with Canon 50mm f/0.95 Dream Lens

www.paulmarbrook.com

 

[Out to Lunch]

Well, I can't buy from the big auction site and I'm intrigued by the LLL offerings -which are now available in Vietnam. I already own a vintage Honda Accord and may as well take the next step. Cheers, OtL

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I have both the Canon 50/0.95 and 50/1.2: the latter, $400. I bought the 50/0.95 a long time ago when they sold for $200. Now- about $2500.


Different from the Biotar- but similar to the newer 50/0.95.

"And now for something completely Different"-
The Mitakon 90/1.5. This lens is only $400.

 

[ravenxarmy]

I'm liking that Canon more and more.
How much would the conversion to M cost? And who does it best?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The two Biotars: Astigmatism, Over-Corrected for Spherical Aberration, and very good flatness of field. Those are the primary factors that come to mind looking at the images.

The Mitakon is under-corrected for spherical aberration, smoother out-of-focus, but not what you are after, The Canon 85/1.5 used to be cheap, but skyrocketed.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I'm liking that Canon more and more.
How much would the conversion to M cost? And who does it best?

The Canon 50/0.95- I kept mine in Canon 7 mount. If I were going to convert it- would go to Skyllaney in the UK.

The Canon 50/1.2: is native LTM mount.

 

[Erik van Straten]

gelatin silver print (summilux 50mm f1.4 v1) leica m2

René Hesselink, 2022

Erik.