Strange post-war CZJ Sonnar 5cm f/2 with gear head

[Räuber]

After hesitating for a long time I finally bought one Sonnar 5cm f/2 that I initially thought of as a fake Sonnar. I'm not convinced that this is fake anymore. It is more of a undocumented spare part Sonnar CZJ was building for the Zorki Jupiter-8 production. On the other side it is a quite strange one since it is using a geared head and an aperture scale only visible from the front and not from the side ( a design that was only used for one nickel Sonnar 5cm f/2 version 1934 ).



As you can see it is in a pretty beaten up condition. The body is missing. You have a M27 screw at the end of the lens to screw it into somewhere. It does not allow to use a filter or a lens cap. I would be thankful if someone can sheet some light on the purpose of this lens. Was this used for motion picture? Was this used for some kind of expedition or even war setup?

What convinced me that those lenses are actually CZJ Sonnars is the engraved serial at the rear end. All serials are authentic. And in the end KMZ never tried to fake the origin of the Jupiter-8 lenses. If KMZ build the lens they used the Jupiter-8 name. If they reused parts they mixed the Jena parts and the KMZ production parts but never engraved a name ring with Carl Zeiss Jena.



I have seen this lens in 4 forms yet.

• the naked form like the one I own
• the one with a Zorki body for LTM
  • Lens Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 2 / 5 cm RED T Mount M39 - L39 | eBay
  • Rangefinder coupled rarest version of Carl Zeiss Sonnar T 5cm 50mm 2.0 Leica M39 | eBay
• the one with a Zorki body for Contax
  • Leitz Photographica Auction - Carl Zeiss Jena 'Spe
• one with a frame
  • Rare Sonnar T 5cm f2 Carl Zeiss Jena №2853319 50/2 GOOD CONDITION | eBay

All those lenses have one thing in common. They have this optical block part with an aperture. The body changes but the head and lens block is always the same. That kept me thinking. The batch where all of those Sonnar lenses are place is one big batch started at the end of 1945. Mr. Thiele lists this batch as Contax with partially Leica thread mount. In reality it contains some collapsible Sonnar 5cm f/2 for Contax and LTM. But it contains as well those lens blocks. Some later batches have a note: Opt. verschr. This note is only an abbreviation and it is not easily guessed what it could mean. The most obvious would be "Optik verschraubt" or "Optik verschraubbar" that means optics are screwed or screwable. My believe is that CZJ produced this kind of lens block without a body for KMZ in 1946-1947.

My question is what is up with this head design? Why not use the head of the collapsible Sonnar f/2?



I got this other (collapsible) CZJ 5cm f/2 block stuck in a Contax Zorki body. The picture shows the collapsible lens block next to the geared lens block. They show the same design. The difference is the head. Thanks to this CZJ Zorki I could screw the geared block into the body.



But my geared block has some issues. That is where I need some help from all the Sonnar experts here. The geared part is loose. I can unscrew it from the lens. Funnily I can unscrew the rear part of the lens with the engraved serial too. You can see this here.



The block uses the same aperture mechanism as the previous collapsible lens block. There is a small screw that drives the aperture blades. Setting the aperture works.



I can adjust the geared head so that the F/2 marking connects with the open aperture. There is a small tactile bump when I do so too. But sadly when I close the aperture I can turn the ring further than F/22 and in the end I can screw the head until it will not turn anymore. But then the aperture mark is way off. And than the aperture does not work anymore. I can not open or close the aperture when the head is screwed tight. I'm not sure if all of this is wanted. Maybe they wanted to have a fixed position where you can not change the aperture anymore. Or maybe I need to fix it? Unscrew the head and reassemble it? Or does it miss a screw to fix the aperture ring? There are some screw holes below the geared part but there are no screws in there.

Can someone help me with this?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

@Räuber

The Linkage with the Aperture mechanism looks intact, and should move in the slot allowing adjustment from F2 to F22.

There Should be Three Set Screws holding the aperture ring itself in place. It sounds like the set screws are not doing there job, are jumping the Tap underneath. The screws could be loose, or missing. I would make sure all are present and try tightening them in the underlying Tap.

 

[Räuber]

What screws do I need? What is the size? So I can buy some. As far as I have seen this the screws are missing.

 

[Larry H-L]

Some TLRs used geared viewing and taking lenses, maybe a prototype for some sort of mini-TLR similar to the 4x4 Rollei?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

What screws do I need? What is the size? So I can buy some. As far as I have seen this the screws are missing.

"Triple-Zero"- hard to tell. I "Harvested" set screws from parts lenses. Trying to buy them- would need a custom order.
I have seen different versions of Sonnars require different set screws. I go through my collection to best match them.

 

[dexdog]

the apeture markings and design of the optical block remind me of the early post-WW2 CZJ "black line Tessar". I havwe always thought of that Tessar as a a way to use up old leftover parts.

 

[Räuber]

Thank you dexdox for mentioning the Tessar. I did not think about the collapsible Tessar. But looking at images of those Tessar lenses I only see a similarity in the way how the aperture scale is printed on the front. The grip ring of Tessar lenses is different and not geared like this one. Your idea of using up leftover parts was my first thought too. But then there should be previous (non Sonnar) lenses that offer the same parts but it seems there are no such lenses. Are there any? After thinking about this for some time I see this lens as a genuine CZJ design.

The geared head immediately kept me thinking this might be some kind of follow-focus design. The aperture scale at the front (and not side) has the advantage that the aperture mark is at the front too. Maybe the intention was to design a lens block with aperture scale that could universally be used. You can use it as a cinema lens, as part of an automatic system or on a range finder camera. The body does not need to align any aperture mark with the lens block aperture scale. Maybe the purpose was to create a flexible lens block for the Russian Zorki production. Whatever they wanted to do with the Sonnar lens they could do it with this block design.

 

[Räuber]

Measured one of those little screws from the collapsible Sonnar. M1,2 x 1,5 or M1,2 x 1,6 would be my guess. Really tiny and easy to loose. 🙈

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Those set screws are not stock items, and even smaller than those I have in my optics lab.

 

[Räuber]

@BRIAN You where right with the screw. I took one of my other Sonnars. I put it in the holes at the ring and even one fixed the issue of the loose aperture ring. It was quite challenging and took me very long to get the small (tiny as a sand corn) screw in place and drive it in. I used an M1 screw driver for this and had the feeling I really need to take care to not scratch everything or damage the screws head.

The screws itself seem to be custom made as Brian said. You can get such tiny M1,2 x 1,5 grub screws / Madenschrauben but there are no M1,2 x 1,6 ones. And those M1,2 x 1,5 ones are pretty pricy compared to longer ones. I'm not sure if it is 1,5 or 1,6. The real deal is the tail of the screw. The Zeiss ones have a cone point tail / Spitze. Those M1,2 x 1,5 screws you can buy have a flat tail. I think the cone point might be needed since the screw touches a thread mount beneath and the peak of the screw might use the thread like a trail to allow the aperture ring to move or to stop. I noticed I can setup how far the aperture ring turns by loosen or tighten the screw. I have my doubts that this will work with a flat tail screw as well.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

All of the set screws I've seen in the lenses have the sharp tip on the end, and usually a tap (hole) drilled in the metal underneath the point they screw in to. The latter- can be very challenging to do, and requires use of a hand-drill and triple-zero drill bit. I hate that part of a adjustment.

 

[Räuber]

Today I looked into Larry Guba's book Zeiss and Photography. There are few Zeiss production cards in there. For the Sonnar 5cm f2 there is one card of the 73th production batch. You can see the backside of the production card where all finished lenses are listed. And there it is:



Right at the bottom of the card it mentions a small set of 225 lenses that where produced with a geared head for an order.

Translation: 225x with sprocket (Zahnkranz) # 2852926 - 53150 order 045

Looking in my list I would correct those numbers since it seems there where more than 225 copies manufactured. My list contains serials 2853129 - 2853591 = 462

So this is definitely an authentic Zeiss version of the Sonnar 5cm f2. 🥳

Every batch of 25 copies is mentioned with a finishing date here. Those lenses where finished in July - August 1946. When you consider that Thile mentions the 12th of December 1945 as production date you might get an idea of how long it took from start to finish of those simple Sonnar lenses. Keep this in mind when you look up the production date in the Thiele list.

Another noteworthy information from this production card is that it is obvious that this batch was not finished. If I counted correctly there are only entries up to 2854425 on this production card. This is plausible when you think of it that Jena stopped the production then because the Soviets started the Jupiter production in the FSU and Jena had no equipment and no permission to produce any Sonnar lenses anymore. My list of Sonnar lenses for this bath goes up to 2854538 though. So some copies might be missing at this production card. But Jena did not produce the planned 5000 copies of this batch.

 

[Räuber]

You can find this version in my guide here.

Zeiss Sonnar 50mm F/2 - regular Versions and Specs

This page contains an overview over all regular versions of the Zeiss Sonnar 5cm f/2 and some of its derivatives. Further below you...

vividlyfading.blogspot.com

I don't see that this one will be popular but here are some active and closed offers.

Lens Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 2 / 5 cm RED T Mount M39 - L39 | eBay

Mount - M39. Aperture scale 22 16 11 8 5,6 2,8 2. Focal length - 50 mm. Focus ring works smoothly. Aperture works. Aperture blades - 9. No scratches.

www.ebay.de

Rare Sonnar T 5cm f2 Carl Zeiss Jena â2853319 50/2 GOOD CONDITION | eBay

These are rare cases. But if you are not willing to wait, then do not buy. It is several years old and shows natural signs of wear. You will receive what is shown in the photos. Rare fastening without helicoid.

www.ebay.de

(this one is very interesting since it has some kind of bracket on it to screw it to a wall, car or whatever)

Rangefinder coupled rarest version of Carl Zeiss Sonnar T 5cm 50mm 2.0 Leica M39 | eBay

Originally it was the lens unit only, but it was mounted in custom focusing helicoid with rangefinder coupling.

www.ebay.de

Leitz Photographica Auction - Carl Zeiss Jena 'Spe

Carl Zeiss Jena 'Special Lenses' (various)

wlpa.auction2000.online

 

[enasniearth]

After hesitating for a long time I finally bought one Sonnar 5cm f/2 that I initially thought of as a fake Sonnar. I'm not convinced that this is fake anymore. It is more of a undocumented spare part Sonnar CZJ was building for the Zorki Jupiter-8 production. On the other side it is a quite strange one since it is using a geared head and an aperture scale only visible from the front and not from the side ( a design that was only used for one nickel Sonnar 5cm f/2 version 1934 ).

View attachment 4828944 View attachment 4828953

As you can see it is in a pretty beaten up condition. The body is missing. You have a M27 screw at the end of the lens to screw it into somewhere. It does not allow to use a filter or a lens cap. I would be thankful if someone can sheet some light on the purpose of this lens. Was this used for motion picture? Was this used for some kind of expedition or even war setup?

What convinced me that those lenses are actually CZJ Sonnars is the engraved serial at the rear end. All serials are authentic. And in the end KMZ never tried to fake the origin of the Jupiter-8 lenses. If KMZ build the lens they used the Jupiter-8 name. If they reused parts they mixed the Jena parts and the KMZ production parts but never engraved a name ring with Carl Zeiss Jena.

View attachment 4828947

I have seen this lens in 4 forms yet.

• the naked form like the one I own
• the one with a Zorki body for LTM
  • Lens Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 2 / 5 cm RED T Mount M39 - L39 | eBay
  • Rangefinder coupled rarest version of Carl Zeiss Sonnar T 5cm 50mm 2.0 Leica M39 | eBay
• the one with a Zorki body for Contax
  • Leitz Photographica Auction - Carl Zeiss Jena 'Spe
• one with a frame
  • Rare Sonnar T 5cm f2 Carl Zeiss Jena №2853319 50/2 GOOD CONDITION | eBay

All those lenses have one thing in common. They have this optical block part with an aperture. The body changes but the head and lens block is always the same. That kept me thinking. The batch where all of those Sonnar lenses are place is one big batch started at the end of 1945. Mr. Thiele lists this batch as Contax with partially Leica thread mount. In reality it contains some collapsible Sonnar 5cm f/2 for Contax and LTM. But it contains as well those lens blocks. Some later batches have a note: Opt. verschr. This note is only an abbreviation and it is not easily guessed what it could mean. The most obvious would be "Optik verschraubt" or "Optik verschraubbar" that means optics are screwed or screwable. My believe is that CZJ produced this kind of lens block without a body for KMZ in 1946-1947.

My question is what is up with this head design? Why not use the head of the collapsible Sonnar f/2?

View attachment 4828945

I got this other (collapsible) CZJ 5cm f/2 block stuck in a Contax Zorki body. The picture shows the collapsible lens block next to the geared lens block. They show the same design. The difference is the head. Thanks to this CZJ Zorki I could screw the geared block into the body.

View attachment 4828946

But my geared block has some issues. That is where I need some help from all the Sonnar experts here. The geared part is loose. I can unscrew it from the lens. Funnily I can unscrew the rear part of the lens with the engraved serial too. You can see this here.

View attachment 4828948 View attachment 4828952

The block uses the same aperture mechanism as the previous collapsible lens block. There is a small screw that drives the aperture blades. Setting the aperture works.

View attachment 4828951 View attachment 4828949 View attachment 4828950

I can adjust the geared head so that the F/2 marking connects with the open aperture. There is a small tactile bump when I do so too. But sadly when I close the aperture I can turn the ring further than F/22 and in the end I can screw the head until it will not turn anymore. But then the aperture mark is way off. And than the aperture does not work anymore. I can not open or close the aperture when the head is screwed tight. I'm not sure if all of this is wanted. Maybe they wanted to have a fixed position where you can not change the aperture anymore. Or maybe I need to fix it? Unscrew the head and reassemble it? Or does it miss a screw to fix the aperture ring? There are some screw holes below the geared part but there are no screws in there.

Can someone help me with this?

 

[enasniearth]

below

 

[enasniearth]

on Ebay the geared head in a fixture
hopefully they loaded