cboy
Well-known
Given Cosina is heavily invested in the M mount from their many recent releases that has amassed a collection of M mount lenses rivaled only that of Leica, and not to mention pioneers to the first digital rangefinder in the RD1; so why haven't the company continued their foray into the digital M system to create the RD2? I don't understand...
There been arguments that the m system rangefinder is too niche in a declining camera market, and it's at time when Japan is now in a recession so it's perhaps not opportune time economically. I understand the RD1 wasn't received well at the time of release so there might be hesitation. But you only need to look at the current competitors. Leica has had its most profitable year to date in part from strong M sales. PIXII has entered into the M system. FUJI with their rangefinder-esqe x100 line (it's not even classified as a rangefinder) has had the most successful system to date. It shows that another M system/ rangefinder has the potential to enter into the niche market and become successful.
It's isn't like their R&D needs to reinvent the wheel as they have already a model that only needs to be updated and refreshed. And with Samyang, black magic and DJi entering the L mount alliance so too can Cosina benefit from this free for all alliance and extend their lens lineup to make L lenses as they have similarly done with the Z and RF mount already. From this Sigma & Panasonic can become potential partners that perhaps can lead Cosina beyond the M and into a L mount systems camera to also pioneer to create the first L mount rangefinder... That is if they still don't think the digital M mount system rangefinder is worthwhile.
Keen to hear people thoughts 🤔
There been arguments that the m system rangefinder is too niche in a declining camera market, and it's at time when Japan is now in a recession so it's perhaps not opportune time economically. I understand the RD1 wasn't received well at the time of release so there might be hesitation. But you only need to look at the current competitors. Leica has had its most profitable year to date in part from strong M sales. PIXII has entered into the M system. FUJI with their rangefinder-esqe x100 line (it's not even classified as a rangefinder) has had the most successful system to date. It shows that another M system/ rangefinder has the potential to enter into the niche market and become successful.
It's isn't like their R&D needs to reinvent the wheel as they have already a model that only needs to be updated and refreshed. And with Samyang, black magic and DJi entering the L mount alliance so too can Cosina benefit from this free for all alliance and extend their lens lineup to make L lenses as they have similarly done with the Z and RF mount already. From this Sigma & Panasonic can become potential partners that perhaps can lead Cosina beyond the M and into a L mount systems camera to also pioneer to create the first L mount rangefinder... That is if they still don't think the digital M mount system rangefinder is worthwhile.
Keen to hear people thoughts 🤔
Archiver
Veteran
From what I understand, the RD-1 was a joint development of Cosina and Seiko-Epson, so maybe Cosina doesn't have that connection any more, or Seiko-Epson won't commit the resources to the development of another camera.
The wiki article about Seiko Epson makes it sound like the RD-1 was an Epson product, so maybe Epson was the driving force behind this camera after all? A digital RF is an extremely niche product for a company that mainly produces printers and scanners, so perhaps it was a pet/joint project of some Epson and Cosina execs from that era, where Epson produced the electronic internals, and Cosina provided the housing and mechanicals.
Edited to add: Everything I've read online implies that Epson was the leader of the RD-1 project.
www.dpreview.com
www.dpreview.com
Cosina simply might not have the budget to develop/partner with someone else for a RD2.
The wiki article about Seiko Epson makes it sound like the RD-1 was an Epson product, so maybe Epson was the driving force behind this camera after all? A digital RF is an extremely niche product for a company that mainly produces printers and scanners, so perhaps it was a pet/joint project of some Epson and Cosina execs from that era, where Epson produced the electronic internals, and Cosina provided the housing and mechanicals.
Edited to add: Everything I've read online implies that Epson was the leader of the RD-1 project.
Epson found 30 in-box R-D1s rangefinders in a warehouse, and Epson fans will win them all
In Japan, Epson workers found 30 sealed R-D1s rangefinder cameras in a warehouse. Epson fans can enter a lottery to win the cameras.
www.dpreview.com
Epson shows off prototype Epson R-D1 series successor that was never released
At an online fan event for the Epson R-D1 series digital rangefinder cameras, Epson showed off designs for a phantom Epson camera that was never released. The camera was going to be a successor to the R-D1 series cameras before it was ultimately canceled.
www.dpreview.com
Cosina simply might not have the budget to develop/partner with someone else for a RD2.
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Michael Markey
Veteran
Perhaps they`ve done a BC and its shown that there is simply no market out there for such a model.
The camera market seems saturated and the only way the big companies can stay afloat is to encourage churn.
A new model much the same as the old model every year seems to be the MO.
I`d be surprised if Epson couldn`t compete on that basis.
The camera market seems saturated and the only way the big companies can stay afloat is to encourage churn.
A new model much the same as the old model every year seems to be the MO.
I`d be surprised if Epson couldn`t compete on that basis.
Leica is selling Film cameras as fast as they can make them.
Used Voigtlander/Cosina Bessa film cameras sell for more money than when they were available new.
Bring back the Bessa film camera line, market is not crowded at all.
Used Voigtlander/Cosina Bessa film cameras sell for more money than when they were available new.
Bring back the Bessa film camera line, market is not crowded at all.
wlewisiii
Just another hotel clerk
Wouldn't mind a digital Bessa S/C mount camera though < whistles innocently > 
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
My impression was that the original RD-1 was a prestige/vanity project for Epson -- essentially a rounding-error financially to Epson and Seiko's main businesses. My theory (unproven) is that the camera wasn't really designed to start a new line of business. These were produced in tiny numbers for a niche market. A follow-on camera would be the same. But when the RD-1 was originally produced, Leica was in the process of protesting (too much) that a digital rangefinder would never happen. So there was a yearning for a digital platform on which to see what our amazing M lenses could do. And the results were pretty good, even at 6 MP and even accounting for the slop in the focusing system that made accurately focusing fast RF lenses dicey. I am confident that Espon/Seiko sold every one they made. I'd guess they broke even on the tooling and design.
Now? There are a dozen platforms on which we can use our M lenses. This includes, ironically, the stratospherically-priced Veblen goods Leica is currently producing in the wake of Epson's proof-of-concept project. But Epson would have to produce something that reasonaby competed on price and image-quality to break even again. Would the limitations of the RD-1 rangefinder mechanism need to be re-thought? Re-engineered? I don't see it happening. But of course, I would buy one if they made it.
Now? There are a dozen platforms on which we can use our M lenses. This includes, ironically, the stratospherically-priced Veblen goods Leica is currently producing in the wake of Epson's proof-of-concept project. But Epson would have to produce something that reasonaby competed on price and image-quality to break even again. Would the limitations of the RD-1 rangefinder mechanism need to be re-thought? Re-engineered? I don't see it happening. But of course, I would buy one if they made it.
Tom Diaz
Well-known
Cosina built the Bessa film cameras and the Zeiss Ikon, both good M-mount film cameras. I'm contemplating buying one of those used to get back into film after a hiatus of 10 years. Are there any rumors, or is there any chance, that Cosina would reintroduce one of those?
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
I don't think you realize how small the RF niche market is. In FYE 2022-2023 Leica had it's best year ever by reportedly selling 12,000 digital RF cameras and 5,000 film cameras! What else do you need to know?
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
I'm lazy to Google it again. Bessa were build on entry level of SLR chassis, which were not only solid as Cosina, but Nikon .
Those cameras were last film, affordable new SLRs sold by B&H. And sale wasn't going well at the end. Looks like Cosina got bad after taste for those last years of film gear been sold as still affordable and entire production line was trashed to no return. Look at Pentax fiasco. They wanted to make SLR, but ended up with fixed focus crap. No skills, no willing workers to make advanced film gear.
Those cameras were last film, affordable new SLRs sold by B&H. And sale wasn't going well at the end. Looks like Cosina got bad after taste for those last years of film gear been sold as still affordable and entire production line was trashed to no return. Look at Pentax fiasco. They wanted to make SLR, but ended up with fixed focus crap. No skills, no willing workers to make advanced film gear.
FrozenInTime
Well-known
That is only the tail end of the story. In 1979 they created the CT-1 Cosina CT-1 and its Lengthy Legacy - By Ben O'Keeffe
Pioneer
Veteran
It appears that the "Pentax Fiasco" will work out just about the way the company intended. Contrary to all the wild reports from the rumor mill I don't think they ever intended to build a K1000 replacement. The market they were aiming at was always the young people in Japan, not us old film hard cases in Europe and the States. The camera itself seems to be a bit of a hybrid with a digital front end and a film back end. We will have to wait and see how they actually sell before we can make a decision on whether or not it is a "fiasco."
ChrisPlatt
Thread Killer
Although I'd love to see Kobayashi-san make cameras again I suspect making lenses is far more profitable.
Chris
Chris
JohnGellings
Well-known
Pentax never said they were building anything but a P&S with a film advance lever.
agentlossing
Well-known
Your hot take is unwarranted. Pentax said from the get-go that they wanted to work up to a mechanical system camera. They said they intended to release three different cameras, or were considering it (remember they were noncommittal until very recently) and each would be more complex than the last.
I've been paying attention to the project, and this first entry is exactly along the lines of the (admittedly slim) details they had released previously. If you perhaps wait patiently and speak positively about the current film project instead of using words like fiasco, maybe you'll end up getting what you want. We need the low-financial-risk product to sell well to get the moderate and high risk models.
Archiver
Veteran
What Pentax fiasco? Pentax clearly stated they intended to make three models over the next few years, the first being a point and shoot, the second a more high end compact, and the third a mechanical SLR. They have brought back the technicians with mechanical SLR knowledge to teach the current technicians their know-how.
Archiver
Veteran
Cosina made the Bessa RF's under the Voigtlander name, and made the Zeiss Ikon for Zeiss.
Zeiss has given no indication that it will revive production of the Ikon, which is disappointing. Nor has Voigtlander said anything about new RF bodies.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
I'm not religious on Pentax.
I just follow directly, via subtitles.
Of course it is heading to fiasco. But if it hurts your feelings, call it as Agat
JohnGellings
Well-known
I'm not religious on Pentax.
I just follow directly, via subtitles.
Of course it is heading to fiasco. But if it hurts your feelings, call it as Agat
Whatever your interpretation is of all of the Story videos... it does not make it a fiasco.
agentlossing
Well-known
I'm not religious on Pentax.
I just follow directly, via subtitles.
Of course it is heading to fiasco. But if it hurts your feelings, call it as Agat
I guess it makes one religious to have watched all the videos, and know what we're talking about
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
I should think Epson's reportedly disappointing track record with maintenance and repair of the RD1 might make buyers beware of an RD2.