Forgot my Tri-X in Rodinal method

[Rikard]

I got back into photography fairly recently. And now I seem to have forgot how I used to develop tri-x in Rodinal. I had pretty good results. I know I used a minimal agitation technique, but not stand. And I know I did 1:50. And I sort of remember 18 minutes. Could this be what worked for me:
30 sec initial agitation
then 2 gentle inversions with a roll every 3 minutes
and stop at 18.

I shoot tri-x at 320-400 ASA.

 

[Freakscene]

I got back into photography fairly recently. And now I seem to have forgot how I used to develop tri-x in Rodinal. I had pretty good results. I know I used a minimal agitation technique, but not stand. And I know I did 1:50. And I sort of remember 18 minutes. Could this be what worked for me:
30 sec initial agitation
then 2 gentle inversions with a roll every 3 minutes
and stop at 18.

I shoot tri-x at 320-400 ASA.

That mostly sounds feasible except you don’t mention a temperature and 18 minutes sounds too long. I shoot Tri-X planned to be processed in Rodinal at 200 and develop for around 11-12 min in Rodinal 1+50 at around 18C or just under. Using less than 18C is mentioned in early original Agfa documentation and helps keep grain moderate and even. The current manufacturer of Rodinal recommends 14 min in 1+50 for Tri-X shot at 400.

I always prefer to manage contrast by altering development time rather than decreasing agitation, which is an invitation to uneven development, particularly with Rodinal.

Marty

 

[Rikard]

That mostly sounds feasible except you don’t mention a temperature and 18 minutes sounds too long. I shoot Tri-X planned to be processed in Rodinal at 200 and develop for around 11-12 min in Rodinal 1+50 at around 18C or just under. Using less than 18C is mentioned in early original Agfa documentation and helps keep grain moderate and even. The current manufacturer of Rodinal recommends 14 min in 1+50 for Tri-X shot at 400.

I always prefer to manage contrast by altering development time rather than decreasing agitation, which is an invitation to uneven development, particularly with Rodinal.

Marty

Thanks Marty. Hmm, I do think I did less than the standard 20C. Could very well have been 18. I did experiment quite a bit and found that the longer dev time and less agitation gave me some interesting sharpness/edge effects in some situations.
But yes, it's probably less consistent than the more standard way. I will probably do the 14min next then. Was that for 18C by the way?

 

[Freakscene]

Thanks Marty. Hmm, I do think I did less than the standard 20C. Could very well have been 18. I did experiment quite a bit and found that the longer dev time and less agitation gave me some interesting sharpness/edge effects in some situations.
But yes, it's probably less consistent than the more standard way. I will probably do the 14min next then. Was that for 18C by the way?

I think it is for 20C, but dropping 2C doesn’t need much more time, maybe 16-17 min for the same density, although that does land you close to your 18 minutes, so maybe it wasn’t as far off as I thought. The time likely assumes normal Agfa agitation too.

 

[Rikard]

I think it is for 20C, but dropping 2C doesn’t need much more time, maybe 16-17 min for the same density, although that does land you close to your 18 minutes, so maybe it wasn’t as far off as I thought. The time likely assumes normal Agfa agitation too.

Alright. I think the best thing I can do is test. One roll with standard 14, and another with the 18. Then again, I shoot scenes with varying contrast and my metering is not always up to Ansel's standard, so maybe it just does not matter too much

 

[Freakscene]

I really encourage that you try a ring around - one frame each stop under, one just on, one a stop over developed under, just on and over, then print or scan and process how you normally do it. It can be very informative.

But whatever you do, let us know where you land.

Marty

 

[Rikard]

Ok so I developed a roll with the reduced agitation method.

This is what I did:
Pre soak 2min.
Tri-X in Rodinal 1+50, 18.5 minutes in 19C (could not get it colder from tap)
30 sec initial gentle agitation
10 sec gentle agitation at 3:30, 6:30, 9:30, 12:30, 15:30
stop at 18:30
Fix 4.5 minutes

I did a some bracketing shots 800, 400, 200 for two different scenes. I used an incident meter for both scenes and made a sanity check with in camera meter. (Nikon FM2, sort of center weighted I think) I scanned the film on my Plustek Opticfilm 120 without any corrections.
Scene1: Outside, tricky scene with the super dark interior of the tent. Horrible overcast weather. The shot at 200 is best. The tent is light brown, not white.





Scene2: A doll, very close to window with overcast weather outside. I like 400 version here. The others are ok I think. One problem is that the Nikon FM2 with Ultron 40/2 only do full stops. Bad setup for scientific tests. I think this scene is exposed slightly brighter than the first.






And here are a few random shots from the roll. In camera meter set to 320.





And here is a couple of super contrasty pictures. Bright white shell on almost black mahogany. I think there is some glow there.






Summa summarum: I think this method is alright. I like the grain structure, and the general look when exposed slightly south of 400. Applying some curves in post could improve them as well. Maybe shooting at 240 is some sort of sweet spot here.
But, is this better or worse than the standard? I really don't know.

 

[Godfrey]

I do nearly all my film processing in Agfa Rondix 35 or Rondinax 35 tanks (or the modern equivalent, the Lab Box) these days, which means continuous agitation in general.

Tri-X 135-36 works best for me with a temperature between 68-70°F and 8-9 minutes processing time, using a plain water bath stop between developer and fixer. ASA 320 base for exposure seems about right; I tend to use a green or yellow-green filter a good bit of the time and I've had to calibrate filter factors for the three-four different filters I have for my various lenses (they're all different!).

G

 

[Rikard]

I do nearly all my film processing in Agfa Rondix 35 or Rondinax 35 tanks (or the modern equivalent, the Lab Box) these days, which means continuous agitation in general.

Tri-X 135-36 works best for me with a temperature between 68-70°F and 8-9 minutes processing time, using a plain water bath stop between developer and fixer. ASA 320 base for exposure seems about right; I tend to use a green or yellow-green filter a good bit of the time and I've had to calibrate filter factors for the three-four different filters I have for my various lenses (they're all different!).

G

Thank you Godfrey. I think I probably should stop messing around and just follow the recommendations The massive dev chart suggests 13 minutes for Tri-X at 400 20C. I'm gonna shoot it at 320 and develop for 12. Should be about ok. Rodinal seems pretty forgiving to discrepancies. Maybe that's the reason why there are so many different methods floating around. I don't use filters much, so that does simplify things

 

[Freakscene]

Hopefully you’ll land somewhere you are happy with.

One comment about testing: to test contrast, use light, jot the subject - your ‘contrasty’ scene is in flat light, where it really doesn’t matter if the background is very dark and the subject is white. Find some contrasty light to find out how your matering-exposure-development combination handles it.

 

[Godfrey]

Ah yes ... I completely forgot ... I use Kodak HC-110 mixed from concentrate to 1:49 working dilution rather than Rodinal. It's been many years since I used anything else; I should do some testing with Rodinal and some of the more recent emulsions to see what the differences might be.

G

 

[Rikard]

One comment about testing: to test contrast, use light, jot the subject - your ‘contrasty’ scene is in flat light, where it really doesn’t matter if the background is very dark and the subject is white. Find some contrasty light to find out how your matering-exposure-development combination handles it.

Good point about the light. From this test roll there where a few bikini shots of my wife in harsh mid day sunlight. I'm forbidden to post them here, but they are alright No blown highlights or blocket up shadows.

 

[Rikard]

Ah yes ... I completely forgot ... I use Kodak HC-110 mixed from concentrate to 1:49 working dilution rather than Rodinal. It's been many years since I used anything else; I should do some testing with Rodinal and some of the more recent emulsions to see what the differences might be.

G

From what I have seen. HC-110 looks to be a great general purpose developer. Never tried it myself, but it's on my list With Rodinal I either really love the results or absolutely hate it. A strong composition with fairly strong lights and shadow seems to work best. A street scene in overcast with lots of people is just reduced to a grey puddle of porridge with Rodinal. HC-110 seems to handle such things much better.

 

[Rikard]

I post one more picture from my test roll. I like the tones and the grain in the leaves.

 

[Rikard]

I just saw a video with a great explanation of how acutance comes about when using Rodinal. If you are interested:

 

[Rikard]

So I did develop a roll Tri-X @320 in Rodinal, 1+50, 20C for 12 minutes, Ilford agitation. Not a scientific test. Compared to the previous 18.5 minutes. Grain is about the same. Possibly 18.5min grain very slightly better. And there are not really any edge effects that I can see in the case of 12min.
Zoomed in at 100%: comparison of face in soft light. Left 18.5min, right 12min.



I will pursue the way of minimal agitation. But both 12min and 18.5 are slightly too long for Tri-X @320. 11.5 minutes for 1+50 with Ilford agitation would be better. And that takes me to a minimal agitation time of 17:15.

 

[Freakscene]

So I did develop a roll Tri-X @320 in Rodinal, 1+50, 20C for 12 minutes, Ilford agitation. Not a scientific test. Compared to the previous 18.5 minutes. Grain is about the same. Possibly 18.5min grain very slightly better. And there are not really any edge effects that I can see in the case of 12min.
Zoomed in at 100%: comparison of face in soft light. Left 18.5min, right 12min.

View attachment 4843497

I will pursue the way of minimal agitation. But both 12min and 18.5 are slightly too long for Tri-X @320. 11.5 minutes for 1+50 with Ilford agitation would be better. And that takes me to a minimal agitation time of 17:15.

Agfa recommended tilt agitation for Rodinal. You could use that. It’s a lot less agitation than Ilford recommends.

Data sheet is here: https://www.digitaltruth.com/products/adox_tech/Rodinal.pdf

But as usual, go with whatever works for you.

Marty

 

[Coldkennels]

I tend to find that Rodinal is very prone to uneven development when over-agitated. It seems to create over-developed streaks around the sprocket holes with the sort of agitation I'd use for literally any other developer.

I'm now using a slow-and-smooth full-invert-and-rotate method, and that works. Approximately four inversions on the minute every minute - takes about 15 seconds to get through them.

Getting the temp lower is very important for grain, though. Fomapan 400 in Rodinal at 18ºC? Lovely, very traditional. Fomapan 400 in Rodinal at 22ºC? Big grainy mess.

 

[Coldkennels]

Agfa recommended tilt agitation for Rodinal. You could use that. It’s a lot less agitation than Ilford recommends.

Data sheet is here: https://www.digitaltruth.com/products/adox_tech/Rodinal.pdf

This might explain why those times seem so bloody long.

I tried FP4+ at 18:00/20ºC, as per the datasheet, and GOD those negatives were dense. I moved down to 12:00/20ºC and got much better negatives with much better tonality. This was shot without a yellow filter with that time and my aforementioned agitation method and is straight out of the scanner, for instance:

 

[Rikard]

Agfa recommended tilt agitation for Rodinal. You could use that. It’s a lot less agitation than Ilford recommends.

I do very gentle, more like a roll with a twist, agitation. Two such slow rolls take 10 seconds. I meant, agitate once per minute, rather than every 30 seconds, when referring to the Ilford method. But I have to investigate what tilt agitation actually means. Thank you.