Developing black and white film without using stop bath?

[Valkir1987]

I switched from an acid fixer, to a neutral fixer a long time ago. Using the stop bath makes the chemistry (especially your fixer) last much longer. I shoot bulk film in combination with a stock developer and short films. It makes the workflow easy.

When done with the fixer, (and the first rinse with clear water) I use a soda bath. It reduces stain on your reels and tanks, and helps to rinse out the fixer. Final rinse in demineralized water.

Amaloco tested the water rinse versus the stop bath a while ago. When using short developing times, the films with the stop bath gave a more even density. A difference that cannot always be noticed, but can be measured.

 

[Godfrey]

Scouring the web it seem this is possible and seem to recall my late Father saying it wasn't strictly necessary.

Being lazy, I've run out of stop bath. I can order some but I've been thinking, how much difference will make by not using stop bath. I always rinse with water after using my stop bath anyway, because it stains my fixer yellow. Just wondering what if just rinse the film in 20 °C water instead?

In case your wondering; Fomapan 100 film, developer, Rodinal 1:50 and Fomafix P. Normally I use Fomacitro Stop Bath.

Just interested to hear everyone's opinions before I either commit or just wait for the order to arrive.

I haven't used stop bath on film for 40 years. Just a 1 min water rinse is good enough to preserve the life of the fixer, and I think it's gentler on the emulsion (... leading to finer grain).

Be sure your chemistry and water are all at the same temperature.

G

 

[Freakscene]

Why risk?

There is no risk, really.

 

[SilverInversion]

There is no risk, really.

I would advise a young photographer to always use a stop bath, since I trust what Ilford and Kodak says over anything else.

 

[38Deardorff]

I've been developing film in staining developer for years; first PMK then Pyrocat HD.... I use water at 20°C with constant agitation for 1 minute, then the fixer.

 

[SilverInversion]

I've been developing film in staining developer for years; first PMK then Pyrocat HD.... I use water at 20°C with constant agitation for 1 minute, then the fixer.

This is the only case where a stop bath isn't recommended.
Can't generalize from that...

 

[38Deardorff]

This is the only case where a stop bath isn't recommended.
Can't generalize from that...

I wasn't generalizing.... that's specifically my primary developer & that's how i use it.

 

[Godfrey]

I would advise a young photographer to always use a stop bath, since I trust what Ilford and Kodak says over anything else.

I've taught dozens of young photographers over the decades. Using Stop bath is hardly a point of any particular significance in such instructions ...

G

 

[pixelated]

Water is a stop bath, just not an acidic one. Using a stop bath, whether it’s plain water or acid is a good practice. It helps acid or neutral fixers last longer, for alkaline fixers, it helps avoid situations where developing can continue in the fixer.

 

[SilverInversion]

Water is a stop bath, just not an acidic one. Using a stop bath, whether it’s plain water or acid is a good practice. It helps acid or neutral fixers last longer, for alkaline fixers, it helps avoid situations where developing can continue in the fixer.

Stop Bath.. How important?

Water Vs. stop bath and film development In the last couple of months, I've seen odd density variations in my Plus-X and FP4+. On the long edges of each frame is a subtle area of increased density which runs the lenght of the frame. I develop in a steel tank with steel reels of course...

www.photrio.com

post #18 and subsequent posts, especially #93
Photo Engineer was Ronald Mowrey, an ex Kodak engineer.

 

[Bill Blackwell]

As I recall, my negatives went from developer to water to fixer and back to running water and that was it. I never really had much use for stop bath. At some point I started using photo-flow to prevent hard water spots, but that was only for a short time.

 

[Freakscene]

I switched from an acid fixer, to a neutral fixer a long time ago. Using the stop bath makes the chemistry (especially your fixer) last much longer. I shoot bulk film in combination with a stock developer and short films. It makes the workflow easy.

When done with the fixer, (and the first rinse with clear water) I use a soda bath. It reduces stain on your reels and tanks, and helps to rinse out the fixer. Final rinse in demineralized water.

Amaloco tested the water rinse versus the stop bath a while ago. When using short developing times, the films with the stop bath gave a more even density. A difference that cannot always be noticed, but can be measured.

Evenness is the best reason to stop development. I use citric acid stop bath, and have noticed in broad areas of even sky that it makes a difference.

Stop Bath.. How important?

Water Vs. stop bath and film development In the last couple of months, I've seen odd density variations in my Plus-X and FP4+. On the long edges of each frame is a subtle area of increased density which runs the lenght of the frame. I develop in a steel tank with steel reels of course...

www.photrio.com

post #18 and subsequent posts, especially #93
Photo Engineer was Ronald Moravec, an ex Kodak engineer.

Photo Engineer was Rowland Mowrey. Without knowing his water, technique or what the problem was, it's hard to comment on. If you use a water bath and rinse the developer out of the film, as pointed out above, you have stopped the development.

 

[SilverInversion]

Evenness is the best reason to stop development. I use citric acid stop bath, and have noticed in broad areas of even sky that it makes a difference.

Photo Engineer was Rowland Mowrey. Without knowing his water, technique or what the problem was, it's hard to comment on. If you use a water bath and rinse the developer out of the film, as pointed out above, you have stopped the development.

Have you ever read what PhotoEngineer wrote on that topic? Topic that started in 2008 and hasn't ended in 2025 even after 56 pages? Wow!
It's not about what type of water did Ron use, since he only used acidic stop bath through it's entire life.
Now it would be interesting to read what Grant Haist wrote about it...
But hey, if you believe that a simple water bath could stop the developer carry over and the developing process, go ahead.

 

[Freakscene]

Have you ever read what PhotoEngineer wrote on that topic? Topic that started in 2008 and hasn't ended in 2025 even after 56 pages? Wow!
It's not about what type of water did Ron use, since he only used acidic stop bath through it's entire life.
Now it would be interesting to read what Grant Haist wrote about it...
But hey, if you believe that a simple water bath could stop the developer carry over and the developing process, go ahead.

I also have a degree in photo chemistry and worked for Kodak in Melbourne in the late 1990s and early 2000s. I knew Ron fairly well.

There are good reasons to use acid fix but the risk of dichroic fog is not one of them.

 

[SilverInversion]

I also have a degree in photo chemistry and worked for Kodak in Melbourne in the late 1990s and early 2000s. I knew Ron fairly well.

There are good reasons to use acid fix but the risk of dichroic fog is not one of them.

Ron wrote the contrary of what you says.
"The fixer rapidly accumulates SOLUBLE siver complexes! They do not precipitate out onto the paper or film if it has been stopped or rinsed in a bath prior to the fix to remove developer. They eventually accumulate to the point at which the fixer just stops working as it cannot dissolve insoluable silver salts from paper or film.
The very worst that can happen is when an alkaline piece of film or paper goes into an exhausted fix bath, then dichroic fog can form on the paper or film due to a sort of continued development (reduction of excess silver salts to silver metal) on the surface of the coating.
This is one reason why I suggest always using a stop bath. If a fixer is exhausted, you don't get dichroic fog and you don't ruin the picture as you can always refix in fresh fix as long as it has not been exposed to light.
One example of an exception is TF-4 which is formulated to prevent this situation. But, even here I use a stop."

However it's not my intention to open a debate here. The OP can make up his mind with all the infos available.

 

[pixelated]

The “Stop bath.. How important” thread will probably never die. I have at least one entry in there, but quit following it long ago.

FWIW, I’ve used a water stop for film successfully for many decades, but I have adopted some of Ron’s suggestions for using water from that thread, i.e. constant agitation, and multiple rinses. I don’t use an alkaline fix. I probably would switch to acid, if I ever went back to TF-5.

 

[Freakscene]

Ron wrote the contrary of what you says.
"The fixer rapidly accumulates SOLUBLE siver complexes! They do not precipitate out onto the paper or film if it has been stopped or rinsed in a bath prior to the fix to remove developer. They eventually accumulate to the point at which the fixer just stops working as it cannot dissolve insoluable silver salts from paper or film.
The very worst that can happen is when an alkaline piece of film or paper goes into an exhausted fix bath, then dichroic fog can form on the paper or film due to a sort of continued development (reduction of excess silver salts to silver metal) on the surface of the coating.
This is one reason why I suggest always using a stop bath. If a fixer is exhausted, you don't get dichroic fog and you don't ruin the picture as you can always refix in fresh fix as long as it has not been exposed to light.
One example of an exception is TF-4 which is formulated to prevent this situation. But, even here I use a stop."

However it's not my intention to open a debate here. The OP can make up his mind with all the infos available.

Note "can form". In thousands of QA/QC runs using test strips of film and deliberately contaminated fixer I saw a lot of unevenness. I never saw dichroic fog. That is why I also pointed out that Ron had seen problems, but I am not sure what sort.

If you take photos with a lot of detail, you'll probably never see a problem even if you go straight from developer to fixer. If you have large areas of even tone, if you don't use an intermediate step at all or use water and don't rinse out the developer, you may see some unevenness.

If anyone gets dichroic fog, post it here, I'm interested to see it.

 

[SilverInversion]

Note "can form". In thousands of QA/QC runs using test strips of film and deliberately contaminated fixer I saw a lot of unevenness. I never saw dichroic fog. That is why I also pointed out that Ron had seen problems, but I am not sure what sort.

If you take photos with a lot of detail, you'll probably never see a problem even if you go straight from developer to fixer. If you have large areas of even tone, if you don't use an intermediate step at all or use water and don't rinse out the developer, you may see some unevenness.

If anyone gets dichroic fog, post it here, I'm interested to see it.