Leica IIIg Frameline Calibration

Coldkennels

Barnack-toting Brit.
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Does anyone have any experience with adjusting the position of the framelines in a IIIg's viewfinder? I've been having some issues for a long while where what's on the negative seems wildly off from how I actually framed, so I did a crude test this week. Here's what I see through the viewfinder:

IMG_1558.jpg

And here's what's on the negative:

Leica IIIg - Roll 52T - Fomapan 100 - Rodinal (9).jpg

I found a copy of the service manual so I know adjustment of this is technically possible -

1761869928437.png

- but I can't imagine a way to accurately adjust it without Leitz's proper jigs for the job, short of reprinting my crude corner targets and saying "well, it needs to be nudged up by 5cm at a distance of 1m".

(Also, now I think of it, is it even possible to have a lens mounted on a IIIg when the top is removed?)
 
I find it hard to see the left edge of my iiig's frameline. I wear glasses, and I believe that is part of the problem. No such difficulty with either of my iiic bodies. But, I wonder--having read this post--if alignment is my problem.
 
(Also, now I think of it, is it even possible to have a lens mounted on a IIIg when the top is removed?)
Hi, that should be possible. It’s been a couple of years since I opened my IIIg but I recall it being like A IIIc/f with the mounting ring on a plate screwed to the crate (unlike I-IIIb). Taking the shell off will allow ground glass to be used but of course you will forfeit the tripod mount.
 
Hi, that should be possible. It’s been a couple of years since I opened my IIIg but I recall it being like A IIIc/f with the mounting ring on a plate screwed to the crate (unlike I-IIIb). Taking the shell off will allow ground glass to be used but of course you will forfeit the tripod mount.
Yeah, reading through the service manual, it looks like the "correct" process is to mount the shutter crate and finder into a holder that is attached to some sort of calibration jig:

1761920720281.png

I assume the "distance setting gauge" is something that holds the RF cam follower at a precise point, and the "mounting ring" it's attached to is the lens mount.

Without these jigs, I'm guessing I can probably get it close enough by knowing the offset I'm starting with (5cm at 1m, as shown in the original post). I figure if I can fix the IIIg to a tripod with a lens attached but top plate removed, I can line up the viewfinder frame 5cm below the target and then nudge it upwards until it's where it's supposed to be. The question really is how easy this is to do; the diagram in the original post suggests that there's one screw holding the mask in the correct position, but the "setting plate" referred to above that diagram is slightly deeper in the RF/VF assembly:

1761921096905.png

(It's part 42-700.01-555 in this exploded diagram)

I'm not sure how moving that part will be helpful in getting the framelines in the right place, personally - I presume it adjusts the entire angle of view through the viewfinder, which may help - or make it worse.
 
So, the frameline position can't be adjusted without opening the camera and removing the shutter crate? Sounds scary for a non-trained Leica owner, even one with at least some mechanical skills.
 
So, the frameline position can't be adjusted without opening the camera and removing the shutter crate?
I don't think you need to remove the shutter crate - the service manual starts with a complete teardown, then works up to this point with a partial reassembly. I think if you don't need to tinker with the shutter crate at all if there's no need for adjustment or service below the viewfinder. Everything that needs to be accessed should be accessible just from taking off the top plate. I need to replace the PC socket anyway, so if I can, I might as well kill two birds with one stone.
 
I don't think you need to remove the shutter crate - the service manual starts with a complete teardown, then works up to this point with a partial reassembly. I think if you don't need to tinker with the shutter crate at all if there's no need for adjustment or service below the viewfinder. Everything that needs to be accessed should be accessible just from taking off the top plate. I need to replace the PC socket anyway, so if I can, I might as well kill two birds with one stone.
True but removing the shell would allow the use of ground glass to match the VF with the image with certainty. No service needed but it would give instant feedback.
 
My concern with that approach is that there's no reliable way to anchor the camera in place - I don't have a dedicated holder like Leitz did for such things. Without the shell and baseplate, I might end up moving the damn thing with every small adjustment.

I guess if I had a 3D printer to hand, I could probably knock up a tripod-mountable anchor to sit the shutter crate in. Hm...
 
I guess if I had a 3D printer to hand, I could probably knock up a tripod-mountable anchor to sit the shutter crate in. Hm...
That thought has crossed my mind but it’s a bit overkill for one camera. Something like a shell with a hole in the back but allowing the baseplate to be mounted would be good. Anyone got any spare IIIg shells?
 
i feel like you could get "close enough" with the shell off and a ground glass over the back. I find it easier to get the top cover off with the shell at least partially off anyway. It may not be as perfect as achievable with leica's service jigs, but probably decent enough. It also looks to me like a very carefully applied vise with padded jaws could hold the very bottom of the crate with the shell removed.
 
Every so often I feel an urge to buy a really trashed Barnack, e.g. a iiic or iiif, and learn to work on them, as well as learning more about how they work. This thread revives my interest!
Well the IIIg viewfinder is a special aspect of Barnacks, but as everyone always says, start on a Zorki 1 or FED 1 (though Zorki is probably much cheaper). This will teach the basics of a Leica II and will leave you with an understanding of the shutter mechanism which did not change in principle for the whole series (though it added brakes and bearings etc. as time went on); the rangefinder will also be very similar. Having said that a non-working IIIc can sometime be had for around 100 pounds and I feel they are cheaper in the US.

Basically if you can change a mirror and curtains on a Zorki 1 without opening the crate you can do it on pretty well any Barnack type camera, things get a bit more complex once you split the crate. Slow speed mechanisms changed a bit more however.
 
IMG_0570.jpegIMG_0571.jpegIMG_0572.jpegRespectfully, I suggest you are over thinking things. There are two ways you can attack this.
(1) you utilise Leitz's alignment tooling. Assuming that is not available
(2) you will have to dial the calibration in by trial and error.

The only way you can realistically have any hope of obtaining decent accuracy will be by removing the body casing, and using a ground glass and loupe across the film rails to compare what is actually transmitted through the lens, with what you can see through the viewfinder. Tedious, but this will work.

It really doesn't matter if your camera moves in between your adjustments. As long as you have a means of returning it to an identical position every time, it will not affect the process.

I would suggest that the close end is likely to be the most problematic, it's where parallax will be at its most extreme. There are no guarantees you will not have to revisit this—but, if I was doing this, I would: Start off near the minimum focus distance, match the top left marker (it's the furthest from the lens axis, and, hence, likely to matter, the most) to what I can see on the glass; Set the lens to infinity and, 15 feet; See if I could live with any deviations at these distances and, if not; Balance the trade off as best you can.

Obviously, you will need a way of consistently returning your camera to the same location between adjustments. For a close range test (say I am dialling the viewing lens of a TLR in to its taking lens and comparing the close range match) I will often point a camera at a black and white magnet on the front of my white refrigerator. Lots of contrast helps nail the focus.

If you need to do a frame calibration, some strips of black auto electrical tape on the door of a white fridge for a reference target will serve the purpose nicely. How to lock in the camera position? Well...place two or three tape strips onto your kitchen bench against which to line up the front and sides of the shutter crate between tweaks. Or some other stable means of support. Quick and dirty, but good enough.

Comparing the infinity framing means pointing the camera outdoors, but, again, surely you have an outdoor table, window ledge or even a car roof onto which you can consistently position your camera sans casing. Watch the car paintwork if you resort to that.

Unless I'm mistaken, in the attached pages from their manual, Leitz advise to base a calibration on the 9cm framelines. (The longer focal length is likely to be less forgiving of parallax, so presumably this is germane to their instructions). It stands to reason you will want to have a trustworthy 9cm screw mount lens at your disposal. Out of an abundance of caution, I'd suggest it best to attach a Leitz 9cm of some description to eliminate possible complications such as variations from Leitz's standard focal length tolerances etc which might (or might not) present themselves if other makers' 9cm optics were attached.

Be aware that extricating a IIIg from its casing is somewhat more tedious than earlier screw mounts. Well I imagine it is—I prefer the IIIf and IIIc models, personally. But I have fully serviced a IIIf RD ST and, whilst the timer escapement itself need not be disturbed—the various shims, distance pieces and other components which comprise the overly complex connection to the gear train can be extremely tedious to reinstall, if you have never done it previously. (Having said this, one of our members owns a de-timered IIIg; perhaps it's you?).

A soldering iron should be needed to disconnect and reconnect the wire for the sync terminal. You'll need to have the tools required for the fastener under the rewind knob and, possibly the bezels for the RF windows and so on.

For all this the screw mount models are, generally, a delight to work on. They have everything they need to make quality images and (IIIg excepted) nothing they don't. I did a full service and curtain replacement on a friend's IIIf black dial a few months ago and it all went fairly smoothly and the camera is now returning accurate times and is back in regular use.

Might as well clean the finder optics while you're in there. Watch the rear surface of the beam splitter! Leave it be or dribble lens cleaner across it with the body upside down. They can usually stand some limited direct contact, but...better not to touch it, if at all possible.

Obviously up to you as to whether you can manage the disassembly and reassembly process. If in doubt may be better to solicit the services of an experienced technician. Mind how you go. 😉
Brett
 
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Having said this, one of our members owns a de-timered IIIg; perhaps it's you?
That's correct - it is me:
IMG_1587.jpg

I actually bought this IIIg for that very reason - I've never liked the look or feel in the hand of the self timers on the late Barnacks. As a side-effect, it makes removing the body shell comically easy - you only need to undo the two screws on the front.

I should also note the gouges on the front windows were there when I bought it; the previous owner was apparently a photographer for a local paper, and it's seen some heavy use. The knurling on the wind knob is noticeably smoothed out, there's the pattern of a piece of 35mm film worn into the pressure plate, and the chrome has actually brassed through on the back where the owner's thumb was, which I don't think I've seen on a chrome Barnack before:

IMG_1588.jpg

You can also see in that photo that the PC socket is broken (or modified); it's missing the ring around the centre contact that holds a PC cable in place, so I need to get the top off to replace that anyway (the circuit still works, but I can only use it with the dedicated Leitz flash cable for the CEYOO flash, as the outer bayonet holds it on).

I'd read all the highlighted sections in that service manual before I made this post, but the thing that confuses me is that part 15-10.126-6 is described in the exploded diagram on sheet 13.1 as for vertical alignment, but the text you've highlighted on sheet 12.1 says it's for horizontal adjustment. Sheet 13.1 also mentions a "setting lever" which isn't referenced anywhere else - it's not in the parts list or any of the diagrams - which is why I was hoping someone had attempted this before and could clear these inconsistencies up!
 
Well the IIIg viewfinder is a special aspect of Barnacks, but as everyone always says, start on a Zorki 1 or FED 1 (though Zorki is probably much cheaper). This will teach the basics of a Leica II and will leave you with an understanding of the shutter mechanism which did not change in principle for the whole series (though it added brakes and bearings etc. as time went on); the rangefinder will also be very similar. Having said that a non-working IIIc can sometime be had for around 100 pounds and I feel they are cheaper in the US.

Basically if you can change a mirror and curtains on a Zorki 1 without opening the crate you can do it on pretty well any Barnack type camera, things get a bit more complex once you split the crate. Slow speed mechanisms changed a bit more however.
Well, I thought if it wasn't too much more, why not try for the real thing. I saw a Zorki offered for $150, before all the import fees and sales tax. Then, I searched for a iiC at lowest price--just guessing it might be cheaper than a iiic. The cheapest was $190 in not working condition, and it was a iiic with no self timer. I offered $144, was countered at $175. You only live once. I bought it. Now I will need a service manual--in English. Probably a new screwdriver or two from Micro Tools. And maybe things I don't know about yet. Fun ahead.
 
Well, I thought if it wasn't too much more, why not try for the real thing. I saw a Zorki offered for $150, before all the import fees and sales tax. Then, I searched for a iiC at lowest price--just guessing it might be cheaper than a iiic. The cheapest was $190 in not working condition, and it was a iiic with no self timer. I offered $144, was countered at $175. You only live once. I bought it. Now I will need a service manual--in English. Probably a new screwdriver or two from Micro Tools. And maybe things I don't know about yet. Fun ahead.
The IIc is less common than the IIIc but neither will have a self timer from the factory. Unlike the III-IIIb the slow speeds won’t really get in the way when working on the camera. The IIIc is probably the best starter after a II and bits are easy to get hold of as a lot were made. But all that is just my opinion 🙂.
 
That's correct - it is me:
View attachment 4879750

I actually bought this IIIg for that very reason - I've never liked the look or feel in the hand of the self timers on the late Barnacks. As a side-effect, it makes removing the body shell comically easy - you only need to undo the two screws on the front.

I should also note the gouges on the front windows were there when I bought it; the previous owner was apparently a photographer for a local paper, and it's seen some heavy use. The knurling on the wind knob is noticeably smoothed out, there's the pattern of a piece of 35mm film worn into the pressure plate, and the chrome has actually brassed through on the back where the owner's thumb was, which I don't think I've seen on a chrome Barnack before:

View attachment 4879751

You can also see in that photo that the PC socket is broken (or modified); it's missing the ring around the centre contact that holds a PC cable in place, so I need to get the top off to replace that anyway (the circuit still works, but I can only use it with the dedicated Leitz flash cable for the CEYOO flash, as the outer bayonet holds it on).

I'd read all the highlighted sections in that service manual before I made this post, but the thing that confuses me is that part 15-10.126-6 is described in the exploded diagram on sheet 13.1 as for vertical alignment, but the text you've highlighted on sheet 12.1 says it's for horizontal adjustment. Sheet 13.1 also mentions a "setting lever" which isn't referenced anywhere else - it's not in the parts list or any of the diagrams - which is why I was hoping someone had attempted this before and could clear these inconsistencies up!
If it is of any help: in the course of investigating the subject I did locate this video on YouTube which actually disassembles the IIIg viewfinder. From about the 9 minute point is where this commences. Even viewed at half speed, the sequences unfold very quickly. You might, perhaps find that viewing it on a mobile device and making screen shots at different points, may make it easier to interpret the relationship of the components to each other, and how they interact?


I note that the repairer who uploaded this video has opted to leave the eyepiece lenses in situ after removing the eyepiece frame and top cover. As will be evident if the whole video is viewed, he got away with this. But, it is far from unknown for these small, transparent components to extract themselves from their seats in the viewfinder housing. Hence, (if you go ahead and attempt a repair) I suggest temporarily replacing the eyepiece frame after removing the top cover, removing the lenses or, at least, placing a small piece of Scotch tape across the lenses to prevent them falling out. They won't be particularly easy to replace, should either of them be lost, and (being transparent) it wouldn't be terribly hard to inadvertently tread on one if it ends up off your bench on the floor. (Fortunately for me, I noted the absence of one from my IIIf promptly when it came loose a few years ago during repairs, and was able to retrieve it from my carpet before I damaged it with a chair leg, or my foot!)

I sympathise with your desire to obtain more detail about calibrating the positioning of the frame line mask before attempting adjustment. Unfortunately, even though the worldwide web has transformed the distribution of information about how to tackle repairs of even the more uncommon camera designs, sometimes step by step documentation simply doesn't exist (surprisingly, also for well known and popular models, occasionally). In these instances, it's a matter of accessing the installation, and then analysing it until its functionality is understood.

Having successfully repaired a diverse range of film cameras over twenty years from the prosaic (Rollei TLR, Minolta SRT, et al) to the unconventional, uncommon, or rare (vintage Alpa; Voigtländer Vitessa, Prominent, Bessamatic; Finetta 99; Rittreck Six; Exakta SLR; Contaflex SLR; Zeiss Contax; Olympus Ace; and many others) I know that I could calibrate a IIIg finder if I needed to. I tend not to break parts, and my greatest strength as a repairer is that I'm stubborn. I don't like to admit defeat, so persevere until I get there. Not knowing your own skill set and experience—sorry—if you are not confident attempting adjustment without step by step instructions, it seems imprudent to encourage you to proceed, regardless. Still. I want to do my best to help.

If you're up to removing the top cover (I get the impression you're reasonably confident of doing this?) you could start by removing the body casing and top cover. (Did we have a discussion years ago about light sealing strips inside the casing? If so, it's an opportunity to address any deficiencies with some velvet pieces from a couple of Kodak 35mm cassettes. They're ideal for this application, although you will need to butt two pieces hard against each other and trim to overall length, to get full coverage.)

You will not need to remove the lens mounting ring, slow speed knob or front cover plate for the shutter to get the top cover off. To answer an earlier question, yes you certainly can fit a lens with the top cover and the casing off the camera.
You shouldn't get into too much strife removing the cover of the finder assembly itself. With a lens attached, you can then actuate the focus at your leisure to observe the movement of the components that drive the parallax correction. If you feel confident you understand how it operates and how to adjust it, my previous comments apropos: strips of tape for consistent positioning of the unclad body; a ground glass and loupe, (in conjunction with the "T" setting on the slow speed dial); will then enable you to compare the effects of any adjustments to the actual image that would be recorded on a negative, in real time.

Again, sorry I cannot be more definitive, but I hope these suggestions will be of some sort of assistance.
Cheers,
Brett
 
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Thanks, @Sarcophilus Harrisii. That's a big help. I've done a fair bit of repair/cleaning with various cameras and lenses before, so I'm generally pretty good at disassembly/reassembly/deciphering how things work. It's just good to go into things with as much information as possible, I find. Why reinvent the wheel if you don't have to?

I'm still waiting on the replacement flash socket to turn up; once that's here I'll have to break out the screwdrivers and get to work. I'll report back with info if/when I get it sorted.
 
Thanks, @Sarcophilus Harrisii. That's a big help. I've done a fair bit of repair/cleaning with various cameras and lenses before, so I'm generally pretty good at disassembly/reassembly/deciphering how things work. It's just good to go into things with as much information as possible, I find. Why reinvent the wheel if you don't have to?

I'm still waiting on the replacement flash socket to turn up; once that's here I'll have to break out the screwdrivers and get to work. I'll report back with info if/when I get it sorted.
I've since found another video by the same repairer. What I don't know about YouTube might fill a book. 😉 But, unless I am mistaken, it seems to me as if it might constitute some of the source content for the video I linked to previously (that plays at warp speed). This one, however is in real time, and gives you a decent look at the rangefinder installation. I think it will be far more helpful. Here it is:

Cheers,
Brett
 
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