Working with outdated Delta 400

[Bobwill]

I have just aquired 7, 100ft rolls of Ilford Delta 400. It is outdated film by some 18 years, I do not know how it has been stored but it did come from the stock of a professional photographer. Clearly one who didn't have stock control in place. I have no experience of using outdated film of any sorts so this will be a new experience for me. My reason for this post is to try and Short cut my own development of successfully using this film I certainly have enough to work with. So where should I start with firstly:-
Exposure what ASA should I rate this film at?.
Developer what should I use? I have Zone imaging 510 pyro and have had good results with this developer and fresh film will igbe suitable for outdated Delta.
What stop bath should I use? I use deionised water currently wigh fresh film,will this be a good choice? an acid stop is not recommended with 510 pyro. What Fixer should I use? again I currently use eco zonefix from the same company and is not acidic.
Any guidance will be most helpful if you can suggest just starting points I will happy to start with.

 

[Freakscene]

HC-110, either the original Kodak thick syrup, or Adox HC-110 “Original Syrup” have an excess of developing agents and a lot of restrainers. These formulations are by far the best way to develop out-of-date film. You need good shadow contrast to overcome the likely fog and loss of sensitivity. 510 Pyro has moderate shadow contrast at best. 18 years is quite a long time with unknown storage and you won’t know what you’ll get until you try. So give it a go with 510 and if you like it, fine, if not, maybe try something else.

There is likely to be some loss of speed. An old fashioned “ring around” helps - three strips of film at +2, +1, and on the ISO ei, then developed 20% less, dead on and 20% over the recommended time and refine from there. 700ft of film is worth getting something dialled in for.

The rest of the process - stop and fix, won’t make much difference so long as the film is properly fixed.

Good luck and letus know how you go!

 

[Bobwill]

HC-110, either the original Kodak thick syrup, or Adox HC-110 “Original Syrup” have an excess of developing agents and a lot of restrainers. These formulations are by far the best way to develop out-of-date film. You need good shadow contrast to overcome the likely fog and loss of sensitivity. 510 Pyro has moderate shadow contrast at best. 18 years is quite a long time with unknown storage and you won’t know what you’ll get until you try. So give it a go with 510 and if you like it, fine, if not, maybe try something else.

There is likely to be some loss of speed. An old fashioned “ring around” helps - three strips of film at +2, +1, and on the ISO ei, then developed 20% less, dead on and 20% over the recommended time and refine from there. 700ft of film is worth getting something dialled in for.

The rest of the process - stop and fix, won’t make much difference so long as the film is properly fixed.

Good luck and letus know how you go!

OK sounds good. We will give it a go

 

[Freakscene]

OK sounds good. We will give it a go

One last thing - print or scan your negatives and look at prints or scans. Don’t judge directly from negatives unless you have a densitometer (a flatbed scanner works fine) and know how to use it, or if you have a lot of experience. It seems easy but it isn’t; your eyes adjust a lot more than you can judge simply.

 

[Bobwill]

One last thing - print or scan your negatives and look at prints or scans. Don’t judge directly from negatives unless you have a densitometer (a flatbed scanner works fine) and know how to use it, or if you have a lot of experience. It seems easy but it isn’t; your eyes adjust a lot more than you can judge simply.

Thank you for the information. I have loads 6 rolls with 10 exposures of the Delta film and will start by using the film in a camera I can trust Nikon F100. Bracketing the rolls rather than individual frames. Thinking I will be able to select better from 10 or so frames of the same exposure.

 

[Rob-F]

HC-110, either the original Kodak thick syrup, or Adox HC-110 “Original Syrup” have an excess of developing agents and a lot of restrainers. These formulations are by far the best way to develop out-of-date film. You need good shadow contrast to overcome the likely fog and loss of sensitivity. 510 Pyro has moderate shadow contrast at best. 18 years is quite a long time with unknown storage and you won’t know what you’ll get until you try. So give it a go with 510 and if you like it, fine, if not, maybe try something else.

There is likely to be some loss of speed. An old fashioned “ring around” helps - three strips of film at +2, +1, and on the ISO ei, then developed 20% less, dead on and 20% over the recommended time and refine from there. 700ft of film is worth getting something dialled in for.

The rest of the process - stop and fix, won’t make much difference so long as the film is properly fixed.

Good luck and letus know how you go!

I don't see the original HC-110 available for sale anymore. Is it available somewhere/anywhere?

 

[Freakscene]

I don't see the original HC-110 available for sale anymore. Is it available somewhere/anywhere?

No, Kodak HC-110 these days is a different formula. I just mean if you can find some or already have some.

 

[underlord]

I just recently shot a roll of Neopan 400 which expired in 1989! It's by far the most elderly film I have shot and developed. Because of this I didn't go out with any purpose
and just took shots at home and work. I didn't want to put much effort into it in case things went south with the developing. I need not have worried as it turned out fine, considering. Also I'm not at all adventurous when it comes to developing. I found what works for me and have stuck with it. In this case Kodak D76 at stock for 7.5 minutes at 20C.
The only thing I would say is that if anything the negs lacked some contrast.

 

[p.giannakis]

You can buy the HC110 made by Adox these days. It is the same stuff.

Adox HC-110 Pro "Original Syrup" 500ml conc.

Thick, juicy, honey-yellow - and everlasting - the “Original Syrup” is coming to market under the ADOX HC-110 Professional name, offering the quality of a German-made classical HC-110 formula.Manufacturing the original HC-110 “syrup” is complex due to its thick consistency, which requires extra...

firstcall-photographic.co.uk

I started a thread some years ago regarding HC110 and Delta 400. I got a few rolls back during the pandemic and really struggled with this combination. I was getting very muddy tones when comparing it to HP5, tmax400 or Trix in HC110. Eventually I abandoned that combination, what I learned is that exposing it as 250iso gave me slightly better results.

I started a thread back then and got some good suggestions. Look here:

Thread 'Which HC-110 dilution for Ilford Delta 400?'

Jan 17, 2020

Hi all,

Managed to get some Ilford Delta 400 cheap so I will be shooting them soon. I am a long term HC110 devotee so I am wondering which dilution to use. Ilford suggests B but has anyone tried any different? Please post pictures also if you have.

• p.giannakis
• Replies: 16
• Forum: Film / Developing / Chemistry

 

[p.giannakis]

Here is what I mean wned I say muddy




Exposing it at 250 and fiddling a bit with development and this is the best I got.

 

[Bobwill]

Today I have looked at what has been described with your individual findings and constructed a strategy to as Freakscene says get dialled in to this outdated film. The nice people at FirstCall photographic have delivered a bottle of Adox HC 110 it appears to be well used on outdated film. I have 700ft of the product I don't want to arrive at the 650ft used saying I'm nearly there. Here we go.

 

[ddutchison2]

With 700' of film available to you, you have more than enough scope to determine exposure and development by experimentation.

You don't need to load full 36exp rolls for testing, 10 exp rolls will do. Delta being a tabular grain film, I'd start with Ilford's current recommendations and go from there, exposure determines how dense your negatives are, development controls how contrasty they are (and grain characteristics). Any mastery of the medium requires experimentation regardless of the age of the film, you are lucky to have so much material to work with

 

[Freakscene]

Today I have looked at what has been described with your individual findings and constructed a strategy to as Freakscene says get dialled in to this outdated film. The nice people at FirstCall photographic have delivered a bottle of Adox HC 110 it appears to be well used on outdated film. I have 700ft of the product I don't want to arrive at the 650ft used saying I'm nearly there. Here we go.

Just make sure it’s this one ADOX HC-110 PRO ''Original Syrup'' Made in Germany 500 ml conc. - fotoimpex.com analogue photography - they also sell other “110” developers that are different.

Let us know how you go.

Marty

 

[Bobwill]

I have done some research including the recommendations from Rangefinders and have formulated a plan of action of sorts (need final touches).

I will take 4 rolls of 12 exposure films each roll will be as identical as I can make it. The subject will be a still life, a set up in my garden.

Camera will be Nikon F4 set to Manual, AF on.

Lens will be Nikon 85mm f1.8D

The still life will consist of;-

1. Standing vertically one mat black and one mat white card

2. Between the two cards will be a pot of artificial flowers

3. On the table on which these are standing will be a piece of textured material (knitted jumper)

4. A page from a newspaper

5. A card stating the exposure of the sets of two frames (directly indicating the frames exposure settings so I don’t mix the setting when assessing the negatives)

The exposures will be :-

1-2 Lens cap on frames taken in my darkroom lights off

3-4 400 ASA box speed

5-6 200ASA

7-8 100ASA

9-10 50ASA

11-12 30sec f1.8



All frames will be metered using a Minolta Digital light meter Incident reading.

Developing will be for the first roll standard developing times for Fresh Delta 400 in Adox HC 110 Pro.



It is at this point I am out of my depth should I firstly prepare that film for scanning and scan the film or use a different developing sequence on the second roll HELP

 

[Freakscene]

I have done some research including the recommendations from Rangefinders and have formulated a plan of action of sorts (need final touches).

I will take 4 rolls of 12 exposure films each roll will be as identical as I can make it. The subject will be a still life, a set up in my garden.

Camera will be Nikon F4 set to Manual, AF on.

Lens will be Nikon 85mm f1.8D

The still life will consist of;-

1. Standing vertically one mat black and one mat white card

2. Between the two cards will be a pot of artificial flowers

3. On the table on which these are standing will be a piece of textured material (knitted jumper)

4. A page from a newspaper

5. A card stating the exposure of the sets of two frames (directly indicating the frames exposure settings so I don’t mix the setting when assessing the negatives)

The exposures will be :-

1-2 Lens cap on frames taken in my darkroom lights off

3-4 400 ASA box speed

5-6 200ASA

7-8 100ASA

9-10 50ASA

11-12 30sec f1.8



All frames will be metered using a Minolta Digital light meter Incident reading.

Developing will be for the first roll standard developing times for Fresh Delta 400 in Adox HC 110 Pro.



It is at this point I am out of my depth should I firstly prepare that film for scanning and scan the film or use a different developing sequence on the second roll HELP

Once the first strip is developed, fixed and dried, scan or print it. If you print it, make a straight print at grade 2.5, don’t dodge or burn or split grade print. The aim is not to make a quality print, it is to assess the contrast of the negatives. If the best frame is less contrasty than you’d like, next time develop 15% longer. If it is too contrast, develop 15% less time. Keep agitation consistent and vary contrast using time in the first instance. If you can measure film base + fog in the unexposed rolls, that will help you understand how much the film has aged.

Good luck and let us know how you go.

Marty

 

[Bobwill]

Once the first strip is developed, fixed and dried, scan or print it. If you print it, make a straight print at grade 2.5, don’t dodge or burn or split grade print. The aim is not to make a quality print, it is to assess the contrast of the negatives. If the best frame is less contrasty than you’d like, next time develop 15% longer. If it is too contrast, develop 15% less time. Keep agitation consistent and vary contrast using time in the first instance. If you can measure film base + fog in the unexposed rolls, that will help you understand how much the film has aged.

Good luck and let us know how you go.

Marty

Thank you Freakscene. Currently I have 4 rolls of 12 exposure film each exposed identical using the method I described. I will be developing the first roll in Adox HC-110 Pro the developer you stated. Dilution standard "B" 1:31 and developing time of 7.5 minutes agitation 30 second initial 10 second agitation every minute (3 gentle inversions plus a tap on the bench). Will this establish a base line for the film?

 

[Freakscene]

Thank you Freakscene. Currently I have 4 rolls of 12 exposure film each exposed identical using the method I described. I will be developing the first roll in Adox HC-110 Pro the developer you stated. Dilution standard "B" 1:31 and developing time of 7.5 minutes agitation 30 second initial 10 second agitation every minute (3 gentle inversions plus a tap on the bench). Will this establish a base line for the film?

It will establish fb+f and what your film does under ‘normal’ development conditions, for refinement given your technique and the age of the film. It is a start.

 

[julio1fer]

Probably, no need to test at ISO 100 and 50, sensitivity should be not that far from 400

I have used HP5 20 year old stored at ambient temperature, and the main problem was a bit of fog, that comes out as lower contrast in scans.

Concentrate on optimizing development parameters with your test rolls. Excellent advice above. If you can’t get HC110, D76 will do the job.

Good luck!

 

[Bobwill]

Freakscene what do you mean establish fb+f?

 

[Freakscene]

Freakscene what do you mean establish fb+f?

Film base + fog (fb+f) is the density of a developed but unexposed piece of film. It’s an indication of how much exposure you need to start getting printable density and shadow contrast. If you compare fb+f from your film with a fresh piece of Delta 400 developed the same way you can gauge the effect of 18 years storage. You can measure it by putting the eyedropper tool onto a scan without automatic contrast or density applied or using a densitometer.

Useful publication on this: https://2024.sci-hub.ru/4755/9ad2055bcbffd7369ea36778f808d69b/vanbattum2015.pdf