Kiev 4AM lubrication advice

[anhuhn]

I'm fairly new to this, so feel free to correct me if any of my assumptions are wrong.

I've gotten a Kiev 4AM from eBay a while back, however it arrived with a broken shutter and from some searching I assume it's the ribbons snapping. I was luckily able to send it back and now finally got another one. I haven't touched it yet (only fired the shutter a single time to make sure it's working at all) because I would like to avoid having it share the fate of its predecessor.

Unfortunately it seems kind hard to dig up information on this, the best lead I have is some commenter under a YouTube video suggesting "If you get one of these: absolutely!! Take the film gate off and oil the shafts on the rollers, if not, the straps will very soon snap, killing the camera.". I would like to give this a shot but am nervous about doing it wrong, since the guy didn't elaborate and I'm not too familiar with camera terminology.

So far I have found instruction on how to take off the top cover and shutter cover to expose the shutter mechanism. I haven't actually done it yet though, because I haven't found any info on where exactly I'm supposed to lubricate the mechanism, that's what I was hoping to get some help on.

Also I've recently learned that apparently there is a difference between different types of lubricants you can use (grease and oil), as I said I'm completely new to repairing these kinds of things. I've got some oil that is apparently made for watches and was hoping that'll be good enough.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Valkir1987]

A short answer is that the Kiev/Contax is a very complicated camera, that requires special knowledge and skill. There is no quick DIY service possible with good results. If you want a working Kiev send it to a dedicated repair shop. If you like to get into camera repair yourself, start with a more simple camera to start.

 

[anhuhn]

A short answer is that the Kiev/Contax is a very complicated camera, that requires special knowledge and skill. There is no quick DIY service possible with good results. If you want a working Kiev send it to a dedicated repair shop. If you like to get into camera repair yourself, start with a more simple camera to start.

Fair enough, maybe I'm being a little naïve, about how difficult this is.
Though my intention wasn't really to fully service it or anything, I just assumed that it would be possible to add a little bit of oil in some places, to decrease the odds of the camera breaking right away.

 

[Cascadilla]

I would look for a more authoritative source of information than a random YouTube video. The issue with the shutter tapes is far more likely to be age or previous heavy use than a lack of lubrication, at least in my limited experience. There are other people on this site that know a lot more than I do and I hope that they will chime in.

 

[anhuhn]

I would look for a more authoritative source of information than a random YouTube video. The issue with the shutter tapes is far more likely to be age or previous heavy use than a lack of lubrication, at least in my limited experience. There are other people on this site that know a lot more than I do and I hope that they will chime in.

Thanks.
Truth be told it might have been a good portion of confirmation bias, that I fixated on this lubricating idea so much, since I read the comment by chance about a day or two before the first camera arrived that either had a broken shutter even though the seller said he tested it and it worked fine, so chances are it broke while he tested it or something.

I would love to hear a second opinion on this from someone who knows more about these cameras. Honestly it might even be the best case scenario if it turns out that it was just material fatigue and there is nothing much I can do except start using the camera and hope for the best.

 

[johnf04]

The ribbons on these cameras (and the Contax the camera is based on) should be seen as consumables. The lower shutter curtain rubs on the ribbons as it moves across the film gate, and the friction will wear the ribbon. That said, only one of the six Kievs I have has needed a ribbon replaced. If you have camera repair experience, Kievs are straightforward to work on, and there are blog posts and books covering them, or the Contax rangefinder cameras.

 

[popavvakum]

A few things need to be said.

1) Drying up of the old lubricants is a common problem with Kievs: before trying to lubricate them the old grease should be cleaned, The shutter has to be extracted from the camera for that, however, you do not need to disassemble the shutter for that. A good test is to arm, set it to 1/2 sec, turn upside down and trigger: if the shutter moves very slowly, then the old grease need to be removed thoroughly.

2) If there is a noticeable corrosion, there is no point in lubricating until the corrosion is removed.

3) Cameras made in the late 70's fairly often have issues with machining. The first two digits of the serial number of your camera is the year of production.

4) A great care is required when disassembling the camera as many screws are made from very soft alloys.

5) Do you read Russian? There is a repair and service manual in Russian.

I trust you found https://web.archive.org/web/20190916072557/http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/cleaning and repairs.html

 

[Valkir1987]

The Contax shutter was designed like a complicated Swiss watch to avoid many patents. The designers were very persistend on keeping this shutter, even for a future SLR camera. (that never happened, the Contax D had a different design and shutter)

Some parts require very light grease, others watch oil and some parts need dry lubricant. The curtain with is set by winding the shutter and slower speeds are controlled by adding friction. The ribbons run through a 'buckle' on the bottom curtain, to semi couple the curtains on higher speeds. The ribbons wear out over time, but can be easily replaced by a technician with good hand sewing skills. A good repair source in Europe for Kiev and Contax cameras is Okvintagecamera.

 

[johnf04]

Two other resources are available, not in Russian. Richards Haw's repair of a Contax II (Almost identical to a Kiev) Repair: Zeiss Ikon Contax 2 Part 1
and Isaak Maizenberg's book on Russian cameras maizenberg-cameras : Isaak S. Maizenberg : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[JeffS7444]

I'd agree with @Valkir1987's suggestions, but if you wish to learn how to service cameras, and you are willing to risk your Kiev to "beginner's mistakes", this video illustrates how much disassembly is required to access much of the shutter mechanism:

Lubricants needed may range from a lightweight oil diluted with solvent for delicate or fast-moving components, to heavier grease for slower-moving parts like the film transport, which are subject to heavier wear.

 

[santino]

There was the Kiev survival site, in English and very well illustrated. Look for it in the way back machine, the site is offline.

 

[johnf04]

There was the Kiev survival site, in English and very well illustrated. Look for it in the way back machine, the site is offline.

Kiev survival site http://web.archive.org/web/20130120112236/http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/index

Rick Oleson has instructions for replacing Contax ribbons in his technical notes, too.

 

[anhuhn]

Thanks a lot for all the helpful replies. What I'm getting from this is that I definitely was a bit naïv in terms of how difficult doing a "simple" service of the camera is. I'll think it over, but I think for now the conclusion might be that I won't be taking the thing apart and run the risk of breaking something and instead might just use it as is for now.
Alternatively I believe I can still send this one back. Maybe it's worth doing that and getting a serviced one instead. I've seen some guy from Ukraine list a bunch of them for 150-200€ which in total would be cheaper than keeping this one if it turns out to need repairs soon.

The ribbons on these cameras (and the Contax the camera is based on) should be seen as consumables.

I see, good to know. And somewhat reassuring that in your case it wasn't a common issue. I think I just got extra paranoid that the first one I bought was dead on arrival.

A good repair source in Europe for Kiev and Contax cameras is Okvintagecamera.

Good to know. Also they list their price for post 1977 Kiev-4s at 159€ which (even with shipping) is a lot better than the estimate of 240-280 I've gotten from a local camera repair service when I asked around. Especially considering I've seen people sell whole fully serviced cameras for less.

A good test is to arm, set it to 1/2 sec, turn upside down and trigger: if the shutter moves very slowly, then the old grease need to be removed thoroughly

Hmm, I gave it a shot and the shutter does move slowly, however I'm unsure how slow is too slow in this context. It's hard to catch on video, but maybe you could take a quick look?

Cameras made in the late 70's fairly often have issues with machining

Mine's from 1980, so looks like I'm good there.

Do you read Russian?

Poorly.

I trust you found https://web.archive.org/web/20190916072557/http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/cleaning and repairs.html

There was the Kiev survival site, in English and very well illustrated. Look for it in the way back machine, the site is offline.

Kiev survival site http://web.archive.org/web/20130120112236/http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/index

Yep, already found that. It's where I figured out how to take off the top cover of the 4AM, since all other instructions I found were for the 4/4A

 

[santino]

Soviet cameras are a bit of a gamble and Kievs are especially prone to problems. If you can manage to get one from the 50s or 60s, you will get much better build quality. Out of 10 Kievs, 1 just worked out of the box. If it is not the shutter, it is uneven frame spacing etc.
I am not saying you should not use a Kiev, just be prepared for surprises 😉

 

[popavvakum]

Your short video shows a late, after 1973, Kiev with seemingly very much alive shutter. Sound and 1/2 sec exposure seems all right. I would guess that it may well be used as is, perhaps a bit rough, but if the lens is collimated properly (which is very likely), you get a (very) decent shooter: Jupiter-8M from those years tend to be very good to outstanding. Many technicians would not want even to service it but if it works, it works; I would not bother lubricating, or trying to improve it otherwise. Run a test film and enjoy.

BTW, the prices you mention seem to be too high even for a serviced Kiev. Actually, you may get a working Contax for that sort of money even with all the hoarders and collectioners chasing after them.

 

[anhuhn]

I am not saying you should not use a Kiev, just be prepared for surprises 😉

Fair enough.
I've mostly fixated on the Kiev-4 because I think it's a very interesting bit of history, especially considering I'm German with some vaguely Ukrainian heritage myself.
As someone who only has experience shooting SLRs and DSLRs I wanted to test the waters of rangefinders with something that doesn't break the bank, since even a lot of the "cheap" options I've seen people recommend online start around 200 and more.

I would guess that it may well be used as is

Awesome that's relieving to hear, thanks for your expertise.
As I mentioned above I think I've just gotten overly paranoid, because after keeping a look out for this camera for quite some time I finally managed to get one and had it arrive broken despite the seller saying it works, which makes me assume it might have broken during their (or my) short testing.
Gonna load some film and hope I'll get some nice weather on the weekend then, cheers.

BTW, the prices you mention seem to be too high even for a serviced Kiev.

I've in general been wondering if prices have become a bit inflated lately or I'm just having bad luck finding good deals. I remember reading somewhere that you shouldn't go over 50 bucks on an unserviced Kiev, however I got mine in an auction for 52€ and was really happy about it, because it was still cheaper than any other listing I could find.

 

[johnf04]

Where I live (New Zealand), Kievs range from around 40€ to 80€, when you can find them for sale. Of the six I have, four needed servicing, although only one had a broken ribbon, which I replaced. One had a fault with the rangefinder, which was easily fixed once I reached it (the shutter had to come out). One had a jammed release button, caused by dried grease, and another (a 1955 Kiev 3) had the shutter escapement jammed by old grease and rust. All 6 now work ok. I have also worked on a Contax II shutter - very similar to the Kiev.