Trying REALLY HARD to love this camera

$50,000 gets you a 200mph zero to sixty in four second car with 400 horse power, six speed paddle shifter transmission, 27 mpg hwy at 85 mph, six piston disc brakes, 3000 lbs, with Ferrari crushing, Le Mans winning performance. That it is from GM and not some Euro manufacturer means some will fail to respect the new Corvette. $65,000 gets you the 500-horse power 3000 lb version with a track tuned suspension and carbon fiber honeycomb chassis.
 
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Olsen,
Which showroom stock German car would you put on the ring to race against the bone stock American Corvette Z 06? What would that car cost I wonder? What would it's fuel economy be like?

: )
 
Sailor Ted said:
Olsen,
Which showroom stock German car would you put on the ring to race against the bone stock American Corvette Z 06? What would that car cost I wonder? What would it's fuel economy be like?

: )
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Porsche, ofcause: One of the most successfull sports-and racing cars ever. Has won more Le Mans than all american car producers together, - if they ever won one. Porsche is not only a sports-wise and a technical success, it is a tremendously successfull business which owns a large share of the Volkswagen Group. Typically, the manager of Porsche earns a fraction of is collegues on USA...

There was this 'vantage car meet' here in Oslo last summer. Telling to see the state of just any 30 years old Porsche compared to a Corvette of the same age. A Porsche not only goes fast, it is great quality & value for the money.
 
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Olsen said:
Porsche, ofcause: One of the most successfull sports-and racing cars ever. Has won more Le Mans than all american car producers together, - if they ever won one. Porsche is not only a sports-wise and a technical success, it is a tremendously successfull business which owns a large share of the Volkswagen Group. Typically, the manager of Porsche earns a fraction of is collegues on USA....
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Yes, and it was saved by sales of the "super-van" Cayenne in the US. A 911 Turbo, the only car you can compare to the
new corvette has a different price tag. And it is a German stereotype that American cars cann't corner.

Come'on guys, this is a global economy. Mercedes Benz is not just Mercedes Benz anymore, my Mercedes was built
in the US, and so are some of the most successful BMWs.

Many of the pieces in a Porsche come from all over the world. My 99 Fatboy has an engine designed by Porsche, etc.

coming back on subject: much of the internals of the M8 come from Japan.

Roland.

PS: I would have picked an SL66, BTW. But try to beat 3.9 sec from 0 to 100 (clicks/h) in the Tesla ... Better than my BMW R1100S.
 
Erik,
That's your value added tax hard at work for you. As to handling, the Corvette pulls over one G in the corners with a ballanced weight distribution, double wish bone suspension and a rigid track like chassis; I just got one for my father (an ex Korean War F-86 fighter pilot) when he was finally to old to ride the canyons on his BMW motorcycle. I own a Dinan tuned BMW M Coupe (the funky hatch back based on the Z chassis) with a stage three kompressor putting out nearly 400-horse power and reworked suspension with a Brimbo break kit. My pop's new ride tears my BMW up (I know as I put them through there paces on some mountain roads this Saturday along with my M Coupe- a car I affectionately call "The Bomb")
 
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Pissing contest...

Olsen said:
You have a point regarding the Leica managment-tackling of this issue.

But the car alegory.... We see little of american cars over here in Europe. Despite record low dollar. They are regarded as 'rubble from manufacturers who overpay managment and share holders'. And we see Ford and GM are going over the cliff. Ironically, it is the japanese who will prove to the world that 'americans can make cars...' So I have great respect for the common american industrial worker. Good quality work - for all too little pay.

Germany, the greatest export nation in the world - not bad for some 80 million people, make some great cars. I have had german cars practically all my life and have enjoyed some of the most advanced and the most reliable cars ever built. I have just received my 2. Audi Quattro, a 2,0T. Nothing built in america - or Japan, comes close.

The German car industry comprises of - not only the car makers, but a large cluster of industries, ranging from giants like Bosch and Europes greatest banks to small one-man consulting firms. The german car industry has tentacles reaching into the german government and the powerfull 'EU commission' - and further on to universities, the media etc. They 'drive' the nation. Only the weapons industry has a similar position in USA, I would guess.

I am sure that the japanese camera industry has a similar cluster and similar governmental contacts as part of a national strategy. Canon has a research budget of a small nation; some 20 billion Norwegian Kroner, - compared to the sum of governmental and private research of Norway (4,7 million people) that does not exceed more than 15 - 16 billion NOK.

Take Canon; they earn 80% (about) of all the camera industry profit of the world! No other, not even Nikon (for sale), are close. This is the footballfield that the digital camera market has created.

Imagine Leica - you can put them into 'mens room' of the Canon canteen. Nor do Leica have the support of a focused government, like the japanese camera makers. - Ironically, Leica would fare well if they launched themselves as a cognac brand - with the European Union supporting anything tasting of agruculture. And alcohol.
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This board has been taken over by the M8 thought police. If you dare utter color reproduction concerns, you will receive at least two posts trying to deflect the issue or telling you not to worry about it for every one post that addresses the problem (or possible solutions) head on. It seems I'll have to wait for Leica to provide a new model or a reasonable fix before there's any serious discussion here again...
 
Sailor Ted said:
Pissing contest...
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Simply: I try to point to that Leica is a small camera producer in a country, though industry/export oriented, has no national strategy tied to camera production like Japan. My point is that we can't expext the same 'service' and 'performance' from Leica - as from, say, Canon.

Further... I register that you drive a german car yourself... Which is no suprise to me.

Attached, pictures of my latest car, a Audi A4 Quattro 2,0T - on the ferry crossing a small fjord on the swedish west coast en route from Copenhagen to Oslo, - dirty and dusty due to the weather conditions we have here in Scandinavia this time of the year.

(We better start a 'show me your car & camera' thread...)
 

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Sailor Ted said:
Erik,
That's your value added tax hard at work for you. As to handling, the Corvette pulls over one G in the corners with a ballanced weight distribution, double wish bone suspension and a rigid track like chassis; I just got one for my father (an ex Korean War F-86 fighter pilot) when he was finally to old to ride the canyons on his BMW motorcycle. I own a Dinan tuned BMW M Coupe (the funky hatch back based on the Z chassis) with a stage three kompressor putting out nearly 400-horse power and reworked suspension with a Brimbo break kit. My pop's new ride tears my BMW up (I know as I put them through there paces on some mountain roads this Saturday along with my M Coupe- a car I affectionately call "The Bomb")
Click to expand...

Ted, When was your dad in Korea? I flew fighters in the Korean war too, but F-84s, fighter bombers. Then I went to Southeast Asia for two different tours -- one year in Vietnam and one in Thailand. What did your dad do after Korea? A few of my Asian pictures are on www.rslstudio.com.
 
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ywenz said:
Almost all German cars has consistently been ranked at the bottom for intial reliability..
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I rank them there for initial, and overall reliability. Tired of being the brunt of jokes from my friends and neighbors over the fact I always seemed to be driving a loaner, I finally got my first Japanese car. So far I've had it 4 months and haven't been back to the dealer. My last German car spent 6 weeks of its first 4 months in the shop.
 
ferider said:
coming back on subject: much of the internals of the M8 come from Japan.
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I doubt that; Most of the internals are built in Germany, and I suppose the chips, resistors etc. come from China and Korea, and the sensor is Kodak. If that is not built inthe USA it can come from anywhere....
 
sirvine said:
This board has been taken over by the M8 thought police. If you dare utter color reproduction concerns, you will receive at least two posts trying to deflect the issue or telling you not to worry about it for every one post that addresses the problem (or possible solutions) head on. It seems I'll have to wait for Leica to provide a new model or a reasonable fix before there's any serious discussion here again...
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The problem of this way of thinking is that there is a reasonable fix: use IR cut filters, like photographers have been doing for MF digital backs and professional video camera's for years.As a matter of fact photographers have been using filters to correct the properties of film emulsions relative to the full spectrum of light since photography started in the nineteenth century. UV filters, yellow, red and green filters, gradient filters, ND filters, tungsten filters, daylight filters,you name it. They are all made and used to adapt the light projected onto the receptor, be it film or sensor to the properties of that receptor. If you cannot accept this solution,that is fine, but the M8 is simply not for you. Fortunately there are plenty of other fine digital camera's out there.But: any sensor that does not require an IR cut filter in front of the lens has a strong IR filter in front of the sensor. Which has, in the case of a rangefinder with a large sensor like the M8 far more undesirable effects that a filter in front of the lens. I strongly suspect that DSLR's would be better off with a front of lens filter as well, but that no camera maker has had the courage to do it, until Leica came up with it. And I also suspect that Leica would have lacked that courage as well but for the internal miscommunication that lead to this. Fortunately it has inadvertently led to a leap forward in the quality of digital photographs. So take your pick: The choice is yours.
 
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What Jaap said- it's a great camera capable of unusually resolved images for a 10-mega-pixel sensor in a small(ish) package. The filters and the evolving state of it's firmware mean it's not for everyone. It is a camera for people who want to get involved in the image making process, who do not mind using filters or tweaking WP post process (it's very much a RAW or DNG camera IMO) and who are willing to stay on top of new firmware releases (if/when they come). Also it's design parameters regarding noise management at higher ISO's means it's an out of the box camera. Leica allows you as much detail as the camera is capable of at 1250 and above ISO . This allows you the option to have images with 400 ISO (ASA) film like grain or smooth plastic looking images as is the norm for other digital cameras. The difference is other cameras do not allow you the creative flexibility to have the detail and film like grain when this is a creative plus nor is the digtial "noise" of other cameras as film like as Leicas high ISO "grain."

All in all the M8 is a once in a life time product that is misunderstood by many and much loved by those of us who understand the M8 for what it is.

I do however agree this camera is not for everyone and anyone considering it for purchase should carefully consider to what extent they want to get involved in the image making process, whether they are allergic to filters, like downloading new color profiles as they are developed, etc. This is not a mass-market camera (yet) no matter how much Leica may like to think it is. Also since this camera seems to have a somewhat higher then normal EFR (early failure rate), anyone seriously considering an M8 for purchase should only do so with the express assurance from their dealer that if their camera should develop such an early issue, say within the first 2000 images, that they have the option to exchange the camera for a new one at no cost to them and not have to send the camera to Solms and wait for it's return.


jaapv said:
And I also suspect that Leica would have lacked that courage as well but for the internal miscommunication that lead to this. Fortunately it has inadvertently led to a leap forward in the quality of digital photographs.
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Jaap,
You've got a few friends over in Solms I'd wager- do tell what this statement means.

Also I think Barjohn hit the nail on the head. The Kodak sensor in our beloved M8 is performing contra to spec. My guess is the prototypes were not so sensitive to IR and that the mass-produced sensors are different from whatever Leica / Kodak engineers expected. So come on Jaap- fess up what do you know? : )
 
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