Trying REALLY HARD to love this camera

[MP Guy]

I have an IR filter on all my lenses and do not experience any problems at all. I use to have UV for protection and simply replaced them with the UV/IR. It's a no brainer and the results are 110% satisfactory.

 

[Jager]

Jeff,

Can you tell us about what kind of photos you take? Have you done ordinary family occations with it? Does people's clothes look normal? etc.

I've been shooting a broad range of things, Olsen. I carry my M8 to work with me every day and I've shot street scenes, people, cafe's and restaurants, the subway, landscapes and architecture, as well as my family and home. The one instance where I clearly noticed the magenta shift was a semi-formal event in a school auditorium where there were a lot of folks wearing black. Amongst the broad mix of shots I've taken, I don't doubt that some of those images, if examined critically, would exhibit the shift. I'm sure it's exactly what Sean and some of the other reviewers noted right after the issue became public - the shift is oftentimes not noticeable simply because we're usually not precisely aware of the exact shades of color in (particularly) the clothing of folks, especially strangers. If I shoot a street scene and then examine it later on my computer, I'm not very likely to remember that a magenta-shifted parka, for instance, was really a true black.

Anyway, even with my good fortune in not having had major issues with the magenta shift, I certainly wouldn't shoot anything requiring precisely accurate color rendition (like a wedding) without the 486 filters. It sounds like Leica is in the process of getting those shipped, so hopefully this will all become a moot point very soon.

All the best,

Jeff

 

[stevenrk]

I've had my M8 for about a week now... I want to love this camera, I've waited so long for it and paid so much, but I'm struggling and considering sending it back...

Am I doing something wrong?

Let me know your thoughts on how I can improve the situation, please

Many thanks,

LWR

LWR, I got my M8 in the first batch that came out. I struggled with similar issues as you are and chose to return mine.

As Sean has pointed out, if you shoot in BW, the camera is a keeper for many reasons that I'm sure you are aware of as you have one in hand. And I found as Sean has described in his articles that the rendition of BW takes on a different and intersting quality for the change in tones brought on by the extra sensitivity to the IR light spectrum.

Also, in BW or color -- not looking at the IR issue -- the quality of the digital image the camera renders is really unique. There is a subtlety and clarity in the way the image is drawn that I have not seen anywhere else (I'm comparing it to current generation Canon 1Ds MKII which I own with L and CZ glass, RD1 with the same M glass).

Then you get to what you have bumped into. Color -- not only blacks, but greens, and blues, etx, and most importantly, skin tone. I don't use Auto WB so that was not an issue for me (and a different issue from the IR issue as has been pointed out), but without an IR cut filter the rendition of color simply doesn't cut it in most situations. And as impoortant, impossible to predict when or where it will be at its worst -- except for the most IR intensive situations which your shot falls under. As do fair skinned people -- the camera without IR will make them look flush and splochy, with excellent descriptions of why on numerous threads.

For a Leica, that is saying something. Which is what took everyone aback, along with the fact that Leica didn't see it or wasn't able or willing to pay attention. Speaks mostly to the fact that it is a small company and the first time that for an RF Leica has had to be responsible for (although not in control of) the quality of the "film" instead of just the glass and the mechanicals.

The problem with the cut filter is best expressed in the attached photo which I've copied from someone's post to remind myself. And although some will try and tell us that's not what it looks like, like they say, a picture tells a thousand words. Might be OK for a rifle scope, but an RF?

I don't know how you plan to use your M, but I was hoping to use it in a way that I view as in keeping with an RF -- quietly. Not with handheld or triggered flash . Not with a bunch of other stuff dangling around my neck. Not with me as the "photographer guy" walking around an event where everyone expects me. With all of that, whether you have a MF or a SDLR or RF really becomes a personal preference/style statement. I was, for example, planning on doing a series on kids from homeless families playing together in the play room and playground of a new homeless center recently renovated in my area. Natural and incandescent light. What camera I use is not the most important factor on how I can make the kids lose awareness of me and get on with it, but I was hoping the M8 would be a help as compared to the Canon. For me, the M8 with the IR cut filter (and even with it, I'm not convinced the color is right, it's just not flat wrong) makes me feel more conspicuous and more of a curiosity than just slinging the MKII around my neck.

Personal judgment. I know many are comfortable with the "red dot." For me, it meant I returned the camera. I miss the ability to have a digital with the profile of the M. I don't miss the M8.

Personal experience. There are many others here who have weighed the same things and are very pleased with the camera. I completely understand why. And in the end it is just a small link in the chain to whether or not you have anything worth saying in your images. So, no absolutes, but hope that gives you another data point.

Steven

 

[brianpe]

Olesn -- to answer your question about magenta in ordinary family photos: yes, it's there. Under tungsten lighting without filters the colors are almost surreal. I've posted an example. My carpet is not magenta, nor was my son's shirt or our friend's clothing (do you think she knows that each sock is a slightly different color in infra red?). The camera is a joy to use. I will simply use it to produce B&W until my filters arrive.

 

[Harry Lime]

- If anyone of you know what I have to do to provoke an IR colour cast with a 1Ds II, please tell me and I will try it out and attach new files here for us all to view.

The IR filter interated into the protective cover / AA filter in a DSLR cameras is stronger, than in a RF camera. You can't install a stronger RF filter in an M8, because it will lead to optical artifacts. The thcikness of the IR filter is also related to the fact that the rays exiting a SLR lens strike the sensor at a relatively steep angle, where as with a retrofocus lens as used in a RF camera, they exit the rear element at a very shallow angle.

But you already know that from the 10,000 posts on this site regarding this subject.

In which case you really have too much spare time on your hands.


As for the original poster, use a high quality multicoated B&W IR blocking filter and you will be fine. Search this site for details.

 

[LWR]

Some thoughts on all this, and no offense intended to the original poster.

It's interesting how much of the negative "buzz" about the M8 has to do with the IR problem. Even though it's old news. The solution--IR cut filters--has been known and demonstrated for a couple of months.

But it's old news only to those of us who have been following certain Internet photo forums. And Leica's statements about the issue being only occasional, and only with synthetic fibers under tungsten illumination, has muddied the waters a bit.

So some people "discover" the issue after they've bought the camera, and are justifiably upset.

--Peter

No offence taken Peter

For the avoidance of doubt, the issue wasn't news to me - I knew the camera was very sensitive to IR light that could as described by Leica create 'a magenta cast'. On the forums (and even this thread), people were saying they were rarely encountering the issue. Given my already disclosed poor visual accuity, I thought that I might barely notice those 'rarely encountered' shots - I'm by no means blind, but I couldn't tell you the difference between a high end DSLR shot and my Leica from a quantative analytic point of view.

I was thinking there was something wrong with my camera, as I was seeing the issue on many shots, in natural daylight and with natural fibres (cotton, wool etc). I'd say it has impacted 80% of my shots which have been mainly family members.

You may ask - if I can't discern the quality of Leica photographs then why bother to have one. I love the build quality and handling - there's a subjective quality to the pictures that I can't explain on both my R-D1 and M8 - also, I get to do things with those cameras that I couldn't with my Canon 1DsII. I recall a business trip to Delhi last year - a friend shot with a 20D and I with an R-D1 - he came away with nothing, I came away with some outstanding shots as I was able get closer and more intimate with subjects.

Like I said, trying hard to love this camera.

Thanks,

LWR

 

[Sailor Ted]

LWR,
So then what's the big deal. I'm TRYING HARD to understand why you're not using IR filters? In light of your admission that you knew about the IR issue and it's fix I'M TRYING HARD TO UNDERSTAND YOUR POST.

Also Way have you had the opportunity to shoot under normal conditions that you are likely to use the camera? Looking at your sample image seems a textbook example of someone trying to recreate the IR issue and since you "went in with your eyes wide open" I too am surprised to see such an old approach supporting such old news. Try snapping a few pics of family, friends and on walks about town. I've shot 2000 plus images with mine and it's not been a big deal- especially when you get the WB adjusted post process most shifts are reduced to the level they only bother people who are looking for the issue. OTOH if you're a wedding photog or shoot often under artificial light then it is a big deal if you don't want to use filters. But then you did go into this with your eyes wide open so you'll be using filters under circumstances were IR shift is an issue correct?

T

PS. I remember your photographs from India shot on your R-D1 and they were exceptional- I can't wait to see what you do with your M8.

 

[rvaubel]

So then what's the big deal. I'm TRYING HARD to understand why you're not using IR filters? In light of your admission that you knew about the IR issue and it's fix I'M TRYING HARD TO UNDERSTAND YOUR POST.

.

As an anti-filterest, I understand why one would avoid using filters. That is, unless necessary. And believe me, the IR cut filter IS necessary.

I just got my M8 a little over a week ago and I was hoping to avoid the IR filter, After all I have had long experience with two cameras (RD1 & 20Da) that have IR contamination problems and have been very happy with the results without the use of any filter. Well the M8 is a different kettle of fish. I returned from shooting a Birthday party and have barely been able to rescue any pictures from the dreaded IR contamination. Both my wife and the quest of honor where wearing fuscia colored dressed which where extremely IR sensitive and the results prove it. I had no idea until I say the results.

I did some rather severe testing last night and I confirmed the necessity of using the filter. Basically if you want the advantage of a rangefinder camera you have two choices.

* The M8 with IR cut filters

* The RD1


That's it,,,,there isn't a lot more to say. For me, its a small enough price to pay for the advantages of the M8. If you don't mind dragging around a lot more gear, go for a DSLR.


I'd rather deal with a few filters than 10# of extra gear


Rex

 

[back alley]

love shouldn't have to be this hard.

 

[rvaubel]

love shouldn't have to be this hard.

Your right, it shouldn't. If there was a lot of other rangefinder choices, the M8 would be a lot less attractive. But although I have a complete Canon 20D setup, I still found myself grabbing my RD1 on my way out the door. Now that I have my M8, it is my camera of choice....with filters.

There is another factor in my acceptance of the teething problems associated with the M8. I have to admit that, to a certain extent, I enjoy these "shake down cruises". There is something perversely enjoyable about being a Beta tester. When you get right down to it, that is the distinguishing feature between owners that try and work with the camera and those that return it with the first sign of trouble. I am just a unrepentant tinkerer, always trying to "improve" things.


It's a personality defect


Rex
,,,,arf

 

[Sailor Ted]

As an anti-filterest, I understand why one would avoid using filters. That is, unless necessary. And believe me, the IR cut filter IS necessary.

GRRRRR,
I understand what you're saying and that was the point of my post. The OP knew about the IR issue and the fix- so what's the point (of his post?) As to always needing to use IR filters, I guess it depends on conditions as I've used mine for 2000 plus shots with not one filter. Had I been in Hong Kong as I was with my R-D1s, and given the lighting conditions I faced, I would have needed filters big time. The point is there are circumstances were filters are unavoidable and anyone faneing surprise, especially if they are RFf regulars, are beating a dead horse. For other circumstances IR filters while helpful are not 100% necessary IMO. Now after Leica sends me two free filters I'll use them and if they improve on what I thought was good IQ under circumstances that I would not have thought filters necessary I will stand corrected and be in even more awe of this cameras IQ abilities.

On a different note, how do people react to the filters that appear like those found on rifle scopes? Do they attract attention? Any filter users out there?

 

[LWR]

PS. I remember your photographs from India shot on your R-D1 and they were exceptional- I can't wait to see what you do with your M8.

Thank you for the compliment - I must admit, I can't remember publishing them, just in case, here they are...

... I hope you still think they are 'exceptional'

 

[LWR]

GRRRRR,
I understand what you're saying and that was the point of my post. The OP knew about the IR issue and the fix- so what's the point (of his post?)

In a nutshell, again, the point of my post is that I thought given my lack of sensitivity to many of the issues y'all talk about on here, I thought I wouldn't notice the IR sensitivity/magenta cast issue. And given that it is so obvious to me having used the camera, given how many of you are perfectionists (I mean that most postively) I'm amazed that you can live with the compromise - and we must all surely agree, it is a big compromise... no?

(Now, just because I've been a little pushy, please don't say my India pictures stink )

 

[Sailor Ted]

I like your India pictures- the only compromise is if you don't want to use IR filters- and you knew that? Also see my Flickr account. None of my M8 photos were taken with IR filters.

T

PS. I'm not a perfectionist I'm a realist. I want to use a DRF and this is my best option- when not I use my R-D1s or I will use filters. I want to take pictures and as with any tool I try to figure it out to the best of my ability and then use it accordingly. Cameras, motorcycles, offshore sailing yachts, sports cars, audio equipment- take your pick. I've never owned anything that pleased me 100%. Everything I've ever owned involved compromises and without making a huge list that would not go over very well let’s just say I’ve spent a fortune on toys. As to compromises in cameras for some it's luging heavy field artelary canons into the field. For others it's using IR filters or reaching for the R-D1s every so often. Nothing is perfect and I am surprised you felt the M8 would be any different.

 

[LichMD]

I don't shoto for a living, but have been fascinated with photography since childhood.
The arrival of digital photography allowed me to learn more quickly from compositional or mecahnical errors and therefore led me to shoot more often. I took the plunge and purcahsed the M8 a few days ago when one became available at Photo Village and I've been shooting daily ever since. 300 photos later I still hadn't experienced the dreaded magenta issue. So I tried to induce the issue at home and found it pretty quickly. Up until the experiment I'd not had a single episode of magenta cast or failure to get lovely saturated color photos.
I'm not adverse to using filters and therefore I'll put them on my lenses and use them when they come in. For me the M8 boils down to two issues:
1) I love shooting with it
2) I love the way it, in combination with it's great lenses, draws the world around me
I'd rather have to use filters then have a camera and a bunch of glass sitting in a bag unused. This camera is hard to put down.

cheers

 

[rsl]

In a nutshell, again, the point of my post is that I thought given my lack of sensitivity to many of the issues y'all talk about on here, I thought I wouldn't notice the IR sensitivity/magenta cast issue. And given that it is so obvious to me having used the camera, given how many of you are perfectionists (I mean that most postively) I'm amazed that you can live with the compromise - and we must all surely agree, it is a big compromise... no?

(Now, just because I've been a little pushy, please don't say my India pictures stink )

LWR, your India pictures are excellent street work, and stating the obvious fact that living with the kind of "image quality" shown in your examples at the beginning of this thread is a big compromise isn't pushy at all. No one in his right mind can look at that kind of color shift and claim that it's just dandy. Of course, if you want always to work with filters over your fine glass, then, I guess, it's okay, but why buy fine glass if you're going to do that? Clearly you can "improve your situation" by getting your money back and switching to a dependable camera until Leica fixes the M8.

 

[BillRogers]

The thing that continues to amaze me about the M8 magenta issue is that Leica released the camera (a) without realizing that the condition existed or (b) realizing that the condition existed but not realizing that it would be a problem.

As a fan of the MGB and other English sports cars, if (b) is true, it reminds me of the demise of the British auto industry.

And, as a fan of German cars and an ex-BMW owner, it reminds me of what is happening to the German auto industry. Fifteen or twenty years ago, the physicians' parking area at our city's teaching hospital was filled with Mercs and BMWs. Now, it's filled with Acuras and Lexuses (Lexi?). (Yes, I know that the tax code has been changed, and that doctors' incomes are down. Still ...)

Either way, it's scary that a firm with Leica's reputation would allow this to happen.

Leica is fortunate to have a loyal customer base. Also, it is not irrelevant that these owners have beaucoup bucks invested in Leica M-series glass.

Someday, this whole episode may make a terrific Harvard B-school case study. From my standpoint, it makes enjoyable internet reading!

 

[spersky]

LWR,

Hopefully, you can still get your money back, or likely sell it on e-bay before the price of the M8's drop like the titanic.

You did not expect most images to be purple? I have even seen out door landscapes with horrible IR color casts from the M8. The camera is useless for color photography without the IR filters because the images might come out ok or they just might not. That is something people seem to be willing to live with to enjoy the Digital RF.

It seems that the only thing the M8 adds to the photographic experience (when used without IR filters) is the suspense of knowing whether the image will be purple or not.

 

[Sailor Ted]

LWR,
I am a bit confused- do you want to keep your M8 or are you going to get rid of it? I think I have a very good idea of your answer but I'll wait to hear it from you.

 

[rvaubel]

Folks

Just to stir up the pot, here are a couple of pics of the worst IR contamination situations I could create. I could not rescue the color of the cabinets in the no filter picture

Rex
...arf,arf, ...grrrrr!