cme4brain
Established
TS ISAAC said:
Hello there! I will have to look at how I hold my M8 tonight when I get home from work to pick my model, it will probably be the Model 3 I think. I am on the pre-order list but will let you know. Again, thanks for your ingenuity in making this product. Too bad you don't work for Leica and fix the other problems on the M8 list!
terrycioni
Established
I had the opportunity to touch, feel, and play with "Thumbs Up" on an M8. Tim visited with Tom A. yesterday in Vancouver. As it worked out it was on the usual Tuesday night gathering at Aprohdite and I managed to get across town to spend time with Tom and Tim and the gang. All I can say is it is elegant and adds a missing piece to the M8 experience. I want one (two for both M8s). There are a few pictures on my flckr site from the night.... www.flickr.com/photos/streetfusion
I can hardly wait for the production to begin.... Thanks Tim...
Cheers. Terry.
I can hardly wait for the production to begin.... Thanks Tim...
Cheers. Terry.
TS ISAAC
Established
Hands On the Thumbs Up
Hands On the Thumbs Up
Terrycioni,
It was very good to meet you and your regular photographers group in Vancouver. For me, it was back to school night while spending the afternoon with Tom A. We share a passion for making things that work. I was very pleased with your positive reactions and the reactions of all who had the chance to try the Thumbs Up. But it was a particular pleasure to see Tom A's positive reactions and to hear his observations. Let me extend my thanks to all of you who met me and Tom A. Tuesday in Vancouver.
Quadtones,
Both the model 1 and model 3 will make your grip on your M8 secure and improve the steadiness during your compositions. I am not worried at all about either model not providing this significant improvement.
Choosing between the short and long versions is a matter of personal habits. My suggestion, if you are in a quandary about which will work best, is this. Sit down preferably at a desk where you can comfortably rest your forearms while holding your M8. Better if you can have your wrist supported by the desk. Take up your M8 as if preparing to take a shot, and note the position of your finger on the shutter release. Please concentrate on the most comfortable position of your finger...not your thumb. When you have found the optimum shooting position for your finger, look at where you naturally want to place your thumb. That is the best way to find your thumb position.
The model 1 is more in line with the resting position of winding levers on film M's. But that is not to say that that position is best, it’s just the position where the winding lever came to rest when pulled away from the camera body, and all the backlash taken up. We all got used to that position, and many of us thought it 'best'. In my opinion, Leica did not intentionally create a grip position with the film advance lever. Rather, they wanted to provide quick and easy access to advancing film for the next shot. We photographers accustomed ourselves to the position of the lever.
Now we have the chance to actually refine our grip with the Thumbs Up. You will find your M8 much steadier and more comfortable and secure to hold with the Thumbs Up. I certainly feel this will be the case.
I can say, the reaction of the Vancouver group on Tuesday night after handling my M8 was very encouraging. They smiled broadly, and started to compose photos. All seemed to agree; the grasp of the M8 camera is vastly improved with the Thumbs Up.
Hands On the Thumbs Up
Terrycioni,
It was very good to meet you and your regular photographers group in Vancouver. For me, it was back to school night while spending the afternoon with Tom A. We share a passion for making things that work. I was very pleased with your positive reactions and the reactions of all who had the chance to try the Thumbs Up. But it was a particular pleasure to see Tom A's positive reactions and to hear his observations. Let me extend my thanks to all of you who met me and Tom A. Tuesday in Vancouver.
Quadtones,
Both the model 1 and model 3 will make your grip on your M8 secure and improve the steadiness during your compositions. I am not worried at all about either model not providing this significant improvement.
Choosing between the short and long versions is a matter of personal habits. My suggestion, if you are in a quandary about which will work best, is this. Sit down preferably at a desk where you can comfortably rest your forearms while holding your M8. Better if you can have your wrist supported by the desk. Take up your M8 as if preparing to take a shot, and note the position of your finger on the shutter release. Please concentrate on the most comfortable position of your finger...not your thumb. When you have found the optimum shooting position for your finger, look at where you naturally want to place your thumb. That is the best way to find your thumb position.
The model 1 is more in line with the resting position of winding levers on film M's. But that is not to say that that position is best, it’s just the position where the winding lever came to rest when pulled away from the camera body, and all the backlash taken up. We all got used to that position, and many of us thought it 'best'. In my opinion, Leica did not intentionally create a grip position with the film advance lever. Rather, they wanted to provide quick and easy access to advancing film for the next shot. We photographers accustomed ourselves to the position of the lever.
Now we have the chance to actually refine our grip with the Thumbs Up. You will find your M8 much steadier and more comfortable and secure to hold with the Thumbs Up. I certainly feel this will be the case.
I can say, the reaction of the Vancouver group on Tuesday night after handling my M8 was very encouraging. They smiled broadly, and started to compose photos. All seemed to agree; the grasp of the M8 camera is vastly improved with the Thumbs Up.
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quadtones
Established
Tim--
I thought about your efforts tonight, while shooting a concert with the 75mm Summilux, wide open, at 1/60th--anything which would help make me steadier is appreciated. It's a natural that Tom A. would appreciate your effort. I have acquired several rapidwinders over the years, for my other M-bodies, and know he really appreciates good, practical, well executed design.
As for model 1 or 3, I don't really think I'll have a problem deciding, although I do still note that, hung around the neck, the M2 wind lever always pokes me in the chest. Oh, well. Probably model 1.
Seriously, tonight I was shooting with the 75mm Summilux and a 35mm Nokton, and the "thumbs up" would really help with this front heavy rig.
--Norm
I thought about your efforts tonight, while shooting a concert with the 75mm Summilux, wide open, at 1/60th--anything which would help make me steadier is appreciated. It's a natural that Tom A. would appreciate your effort. I have acquired several rapidwinders over the years, for my other M-bodies, and know he really appreciates good, practical, well executed design.
As for model 1 or 3, I don't really think I'll have a problem deciding, although I do still note that, hung around the neck, the M2 wind lever always pokes me in the chest. Oh, well. Probably model 1.
Seriously, tonight I was shooting with the 75mm Summilux and a 35mm Nokton, and the "thumbs up" would really help with this front heavy rig.
--Norm
TS ISAAC
Established
Poke in the chest, or reminder to shoot more photos
Poke in the chest, or reminder to shoot more photos
Appreciate your comment Norm. I know it will steady your grip. For me, I find myself already reaching across the desk or table to pick up my M8 with one hand from a distance, even before I have the neck strap in place. I never had that confidence prior to the Thumbs Up. Its doing its job very well for me now.
When the M8 is around my neck, I like to think of the Thumbs Up not as a poke in my chest, but a kind reminder from the camera is in place and ready for use!....
Poke in the chest, or reminder to shoot more photos
Appreciate your comment Norm. I know it will steady your grip. For me, I find myself already reaching across the desk or table to pick up my M8 with one hand from a distance, even before I have the neck strap in place. I never had that confidence prior to the Thumbs Up. Its doing its job very well for me now.
When the M8 is around my neck, I like to think of the Thumbs Up not as a poke in my chest, but a kind reminder from the camera is in place and ready for use!....
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T
Tom Conte
Guest
Xmas said:
Not at all, at least not in the US system. Patenting is allowed for one year after publication, and I recommend filing a provisional design patent on this right away.
Here are the rules:
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/design/index.html
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/consolidated_laws.pdf
in the latter, the key is 35 USC 102 (b):
I WISH I didn't know so much about patents...
Tom
TS ISAAC
Established
Patents in the USA
Patents in the USA
Tom,
Many thanks for your observations and the USPTO regs. You certainly know your stuff.
I have been through the patent application process several times. I have even managed to fool them 4 times now. They granted me 2 design patents and 2 ulitilty patents over the years, but those were after twice as many applicatons! Lots of time money and patience required.
I agree with your assesment of the 12 month limit for filing following public disclosure in the US. Other countries differ. I may try for two US patents on the Thumbs Up, both a design and a utility patent.
Let keep our fingers, and thumbs crossed.
Patents in the USA
Tom,
Many thanks for your observations and the USPTO regs. You certainly know your stuff.
I have been through the patent application process several times. I have even managed to fool them 4 times now. They granted me 2 design patents and 2 ulitilty patents over the years, but those were after twice as many applicatons! Lots of time money and patience required.
I agree with your assesment of the 12 month limit for filing following public disclosure in the US. Other countries differ. I may try for two US patents on the Thumbs Up, both a design and a utility patent.
Let keep our fingers, and thumbs crossed.
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barjohn
Established
Just bare in mind that the recent Supreme Court case has raised the bar on the test for obviousness. This may be a hard test to meet but it is worth a try. Of course it costs next to nothing to register a copyright on the various forms and that would make it more difficult to copy. In particular the part of the design on the attachment to the camera via the hot shoe is a critical aspect. Good luck.
T
Tom Conte
Guest
John,
You're right that the most recent supreme court ruling was 'unfortunate'. But it affects litigation, not patent prosecution. I don't think that Tim will have any more trouble than before patenting his invention.
Tim, please find a manufacturer, set up a distribution channel and get me one of these right quick! My M8 needs one of these!
Tom
You're right that the most recent supreme court ruling was 'unfortunate'. But it affects litigation, not patent prosecution. I don't think that Tim will have any more trouble than before patenting his invention.
Tim, please find a manufacturer, set up a distribution channel and get me one of these right quick! My M8 needs one of these!
Tom
TS ISAAC
Established
Thumbs Up progress to date
Thumbs Up progress to date
Tom,
Yes, you will wonder how you managed without a Thumbs Up after you have had it on the camera just a short time. I am really enjoying my model 2 prototype.
To update on the status: I have the manuafacturer already selected and I have been working with him several weeks already and also on unrelated projects. He has years experience producing camera components, and is also very skilled with final surface treaments, which in in my case, are enamels. This past week he has been setting up my model 1 and model 3 for production. That means he is working through the best methods and sequences for the CNC milling operation. Once this is mastered, and I approve the samples, we will be ready for a production run. The shape of the Thumbs Up is very curvy and presents a few challenges to the machinist just to hold in the CNC for the final machining steps.
I will be looking over his shoulder again in a few days and will show all of you a the final production samples...as they are approved for production. I will also show some detailed shots of the production. I will post photos of the final sample pieces and then announce that my sales have started. For the sales I am preparing a website. It still looks like production can begin this month.
Thanks again to all of you who have taken the time to follow the progress of this project. It is easy to see, even a simple idea takes considerable effort to bring to production. In this case, I feel it will improve the use of these fabulous M8's for all of us.
Thumbs Up progress to date
Tom,
Yes, you will wonder how you managed without a Thumbs Up after you have had it on the camera just a short time. I am really enjoying my model 2 prototype.
To update on the status: I have the manuafacturer already selected and I have been working with him several weeks already and also on unrelated projects. He has years experience producing camera components, and is also very skilled with final surface treaments, which in in my case, are enamels. This past week he has been setting up my model 1 and model 3 for production. That means he is working through the best methods and sequences for the CNC milling operation. Once this is mastered, and I approve the samples, we will be ready for a production run. The shape of the Thumbs Up is very curvy and presents a few challenges to the machinist just to hold in the CNC for the final machining steps.
I will be looking over his shoulder again in a few days and will show all of you a the final production samples...as they are approved for production. I will also show some detailed shots of the production. I will post photos of the final sample pieces and then announce that my sales have started. For the sales I am preparing a website. It still looks like production can begin this month.
Thanks again to all of you who have taken the time to follow the progress of this project. It is easy to see, even a simple idea takes considerable effort to bring to production. In this case, I feel it will improve the use of these fabulous M8's for all of us.
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weser
Member
Tim,
I'm following this thread for quite some time and think your idea is brilliant.
Guess, it's time for me to get in line.
Not 100% sure which model to order, though.
Since I have rather smaller hands I'd say Model 3 is the way to go.
But because I am using one of Tom A.'s softies, I come to belief the shorter Model 1 might be more in line with the way I actually hold the camera when I shoot.
Makes sense, doesn't it.
How about a model that's right in between of those two? Would that make sense or be overkill?
Harald
I'm following this thread for quite some time and think your idea is brilliant.
Guess, it's time for me to get in line.
Not 100% sure which model to order, though.
Since I have rather smaller hands I'd say Model 3 is the way to go.
But because I am using one of Tom A.'s softies, I come to belief the shorter Model 1 might be more in line with the way I actually hold the camera when I shoot.
Makes sense, doesn't it.
How about a model that's right in between of those two? Would that make sense or be overkill?
Harald
TS ISAAC
Established
Choosing a Thumbs Up model 1 or model 3
Choosing a Thumbs Up model 1 or model 3
Harald,
I also have a Softie, thanks to Tom A in Vancouver last week. The Softie is great and allows a more precise operation of the shutter release...no doubt about that!
The past few weeks I have been using a Thumbs Up model 2 prototype and it has the same reach as the model 3.
This combination of Thumbs Up and the Softie makes both work better in my opinion. Tom A tested this idea immediately, when I handed him my camera, and he agreed, they worked beautifully together.
Either the model 1 or the model 2 will serve you well. I would choose the short one for myself. But, as I mentioned, I am using the long position of the model 3, and I find it does all I thought it would when I originally started my Thumbs Up design.
This commentary does not help you much with your decision, except to say that you wont be dissappointed with either model. Check a previous reply of mine about finding your actual thumb posiiton.
Most of all, thanks for your comment and interest.
Choosing a Thumbs Up model 1 or model 3
Harald,
I also have a Softie, thanks to Tom A in Vancouver last week. The Softie is great and allows a more precise operation of the shutter release...no doubt about that!
The past few weeks I have been using a Thumbs Up model 2 prototype and it has the same reach as the model 3.
This combination of Thumbs Up and the Softie makes both work better in my opinion. Tom A tested this idea immediately, when I handed him my camera, and he agreed, they worked beautifully together.
Either the model 1 or the model 2 will serve you well. I would choose the short one for myself. But, as I mentioned, I am using the long position of the model 3, and I find it does all I thought it would when I originally started my Thumbs Up design.
This commentary does not help you much with your decision, except to say that you wont be dissappointed with either model. Check a previous reply of mine about finding your actual thumb posiiton.
Most of all, thanks for your comment and interest.
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weser
Member
I was talking to Tom A on the phone the other day and his praise for your Thumps Up design got me thinking to order one. Hence my earlier post. Not that your excellent design was already convincing enough but because I respect Tom A's advice greatly, I decided to order right away.TS ISAAC said:
I followed your suggestion on how to find the best/actuall thumb position. That's how I realized the difference in just holding the camera to actually pulling the trigger so to speak when using a softie.
Since you are using now one as well, what do you find better, the shorter (1) one to help with the 'softie hand/thumb position' or the longer version (2/3) when just carrying the camera?
Thanks for your help.
Harald
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etrigan63
Rangefinder Padawan
Does anyone know if Tom A's softie still requires gluing for attachment to an M8? I know it has threads, but his site recommends the use of Loc-tite when installing the softie.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
The use of Loc Tite on a softie is not that good an idea, unless you want a permanent Softie. In most cases they Softie stays on without any adhesives, but the thread for cable release is very much a "loose" fit. There are great differences between Leicas and also other cameras, even between the same models as to the thread. You tighten the Softie down, but you dont "force" it and that usually keeps it in place, but if the thread in your cable release is "looser" than normal. it can unscrew. The easiest solution is to apply some nail polish to te thread of the softie (a very small amount, just a "dab") and let it dry until it is sticky to the touch. Then screw it down. that usually cures the problem. Loc Tite is fraught with danger if you use the wrong one. Red Loc Tite is tough to unscrew, Blue is Ok and NEVER use the purple one as that will install the Softie permanently! The nail polish trick works well and doesnot require chasing down a specialty store and buying expensive adhesives!
Some cameras have a small flat plate at the bottom of the cable release thread and the "nib" at the bottom of the softie can hit it and prevent the Softie from being screwed on all the way down. If this is the case, take a small file and file down the nib slightly and try it. Once you feel that the Softie is secure, thats enough filing. I dont have specific statistics, but my estimate is that 90-95% of the Softies work as I intended them to do and the 5% that need "extra support" can be attached with the nail polish system.
Some of the very early M3's (700-705 000) has an entirely different cable thread and will not take the Softie or a standard cable thread! My suspiscion is that there was a lot of "eye-balling" of these threads by the manufaturers in the early days and even today there is no real standard for this thread!
Some cameras have a small flat plate at the bottom of the cable release thread and the "nib" at the bottom of the softie can hit it and prevent the Softie from being screwed on all the way down. If this is the case, take a small file and file down the nib slightly and try it. Once you feel that the Softie is secure, thats enough filing. I dont have specific statistics, but my estimate is that 90-95% of the Softies work as I intended them to do and the 5% that need "extra support" can be attached with the nail polish system.
Some of the very early M3's (700-705 000) has an entirely different cable thread and will not take the Softie or a standard cable thread! My suspiscion is that there was a lot of "eye-balling" of these threads by the manufaturers in the early days and even today there is no real standard for this thread!
Ed Schwartzreic
Well-known
Have been following the thread, and already have my name on the list for a Model 1. I want to add my vote for an attached cold shoe on this admirable device. While I don't use 12 - 1 5 - 21 too often, I do use a 25mm, for which I carry a VC 28/35 Mini Finder. While I would be happy removing the Thumbs Up for those occasions when I need an ultra-wide, I lhave been regularly keeping the 28/35 finder on my M8, and would like to continue to do so.
TS ISAAC
Established
Thumbs Up model 1 & model 3 protoypes nearly complete
Thumbs Up model 1 & model 3 protoypes nearly complete
Tom A., Many thanks for your detailed description above on installing your Softie. I am finding much improved function and precision when pressing my M8 shutter release using the Softie you gave me in Vancouver. It will be on my camera permanently.
Tony Rose,
The Giottos Pro Optical Glass Screen Protector you gave me in your home in Thousand Oaks provides much more protection than I thought it would. I feel more confident with the camera hanging at my side now, and much less wprried about the screen. The M8 screen feels smoother and I don’t worry about scratches. It is an excellent addition and very discrete.
Ed Schwartzreic,
Your points are all well taken. Your reminder of the importance of the use of wide angle view finders drives my thinking for future work, as I prepare my first two Thumbs Up models for production. The addition of a hot or cold shoe is not practical at this time, but clearly required for use with WA viewfinders. Stay tuned. This has also been discussed in great detail with Tony Rose and Tom A. I feel I have an excellent basis from which to develop more models, now that the model 1 and model 3 near completion.
I am now very proud to show all of you the first solid brass production prototypes of the Thumbs Up model 1 and model 3. There is no engraving at this point, and they have not yet been polished or painted. At this stage the dimensions and the fit are checked, and CNC programs modified as needed to catch the tolerances required by my design. It is getting very exciting at this stage. Production is just around the corner now.
Thanks to all who have expressed keen interest and joined my first shipment list.
Next is painting the samples, and then it is off to the presses for the first production runs.
Many many thanks to all for ideas, support and encouragement along the way.
Also many thanks to my wife Lily for her photography while on the other side of the world, showing us all the samples below. Is she upside down...or is it me?
Above: Thumbs Up mode 1 production proto run
Above: Thumbs Up model 1 production proto run.
Machining marks can be seen since this part has come directly from milling. No polishing yet.
Above: Thumbs Up model 3 production proto.
Above: Thumbs Up model 3 production prototype.
Above: Thumbs Up model 3 production prototype. Round pocket will enable fitting on older
M models, by accommodating the flash contact.
Thumbs Up model 1 & model 3 protoypes nearly complete
Tom A., Many thanks for your detailed description above on installing your Softie. I am finding much improved function and precision when pressing my M8 shutter release using the Softie you gave me in Vancouver. It will be on my camera permanently.
Tony Rose,
The Giottos Pro Optical Glass Screen Protector you gave me in your home in Thousand Oaks provides much more protection than I thought it would. I feel more confident with the camera hanging at my side now, and much less wprried about the screen. The M8 screen feels smoother and I don’t worry about scratches. It is an excellent addition and very discrete.
Ed Schwartzreic,
Your points are all well taken. Your reminder of the importance of the use of wide angle view finders drives my thinking for future work, as I prepare my first two Thumbs Up models for production. The addition of a hot or cold shoe is not practical at this time, but clearly required for use with WA viewfinders. Stay tuned. This has also been discussed in great detail with Tony Rose and Tom A. I feel I have an excellent basis from which to develop more models, now that the model 1 and model 3 near completion.
I am now very proud to show all of you the first solid brass production prototypes of the Thumbs Up model 1 and model 3. There is no engraving at this point, and they have not yet been polished or painted. At this stage the dimensions and the fit are checked, and CNC programs modified as needed to catch the tolerances required by my design. It is getting very exciting at this stage. Production is just around the corner now.
Thanks to all who have expressed keen interest and joined my first shipment list.
Next is painting the samples, and then it is off to the presses for the first production runs.
Many many thanks to all for ideas, support and encouragement along the way.
Also many thanks to my wife Lily for her photography while on the other side of the world, showing us all the samples below. Is she upside down...or is it me?
Above: Thumbs Up mode 1 production proto run
Above: Thumbs Up model 1 production proto run.
Machining marks can be seen since this part has come directly from milling. No polishing yet.
Above: Thumbs Up model 3 production proto.
Above: Thumbs Up model 3 production prototype.
Above: Thumbs Up model 3 production prototype. Round pocket will enable fitting on older
M models, by accommodating the flash contact.
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T
Tom Conte
Guest
Tim,
I neglected in all my legal ramblings to put my name on "the list," so please put me down for a Thumbs Up model 3.
Many thanks,
Tom
I neglected in all my legal ramblings to put my name on "the list," so please put me down for a Thumbs Up model 3.
Many thanks,
Tom
weser
Member
Tim,
Just in case you didn't receive my email. Please put me down for a Model 1.
Thanks.
harald
Just in case you didn't receive my email. Please put me down for a Model 1.
Thanks.
harald
barjohn
Established
Tom Conte said:John,
You're right that the most recent supreme court ruling was 'unfortunate'. But it affects litigation, not patent prosecution. I don't think that Tim will have any more trouble than before patenting his invention.
Tim, please find a manufacturer, set up a distribution channel and get me one of these right quick! My M8 needs one of these!
Tom
Tom,
I disagree with you on two points. First, I think it was much needed so I don't view it as unfortunate and while it most effects litigation, it will also effect the way the examiners apply the "obviousness" rule. With the change in the patent office to being a self-funding entity there has been a trend to approve far too many patents that should never have been approved leading to a significant increase on costly patent litigation and the overturning of many patents on review.
In particular, in the software arena, patents have gotten ridiculous and in my humble opinion the area of software (algorithms) should never have been allowed.