cine stock

[mexipike]

I've seen various posts about purchasing large rolls of cine film to save money or just to get a certaing look. I was wondering what kinds of black and films are available, and if there's anyone out there who know what films different movies were shot on.

I'm primarily interested in knowing what type of film welles used in A Touch of Evil, that's some great photography.

Also where can such films be found online??

 

[mexipike]

nobody ??????

 

[JJW]

Are you in the USA or overseas?

 

[mexipike]

For the most part I live in Mexico, but am about to be in the states for a few months, I generally buy all my film in the states.

 

[JJW]

Send me an email through the board and I can refer you to some sources in NY and LA for short ended and recanned movie stock.

You should also go to the Kodak website and drill down through the professional section to the cine and movie stock pages. You will find a lot of great info there. Also check out the cinematography mailing lists.

I believe Ilford offers PanF, FP4 and HP5 in 35mm movie magazine lengths (400 and 1000 foot loads) but it's the same stuff you can get at your local camera store. Kodak has Super-XX available in 35mm. It was the cat's meow in Hollywood for a long time in the late 50s and early 60s for B&W cine work.

If you go to the IMDB.com database and search for "A Touch of Evil" you'll find some technical information on the film. Apparently it was restored in 1998 by a motion picture lab in Burbank CA. You can contact them and I'm sure they can tell you about the original camera neg.

 

[MartinP]

I have used the ilford FP4 cine stock from a 200' roll, long ago (20 years or so) when I was a student. The emulsion seemed the same as normal, so far as I recall, although the pack carried speed of 64asa, instead of the expected 125asa.

I loaded cassettes in a completely darkroom, instead of splitting the 200' on to two cores for use in a daylight-loader, probably because I no no alternative at the time.

The sprocket holes were slightly rounded, presumably for the transport mechanism inside movie cameras, and there were footage markings instead of frame-numbers.

 

[Chaser]

You can check
http://www.tapesuperstore.com/kodak35mmfilm.html

they are supposed to have kodak 5222 short ends off and on at 18c a foot

 

[JJW]

That's a bait and switch. "Tape Superstore" is really Film Emporium. They never have anything available at those prices. 5222 is Super-XX and it would rarely be available short ended or recanned because professional filmmakers never shoot in B&W.

I have a much better source for short ends, recans and factory loads on this stuff.

 

[Tom A]

i shoot about 50-60% (250-300 rolls/year) of my stuff with movie stock. Mainly Double XX but at the moment I am using up my last 400 ft of Agfapan 250 (Agfa's version of XX). There are still movies being shot on Black/white stock. George Clooney's latest "The Good German" and "Good Night and Good Luck" are a pair of them. Bl/w stock is still used in a lot of the Music Video's too.
There is really no problem using it, except with motor-drives as the pitch is slightly different and it can jam. The Horizon 202 Panorama camera is also sensitive to it.
I did not know about Ilford still producing movie stock. Can anybody shed some light on availability? Fuji in Japan makes some stock, although i dont know which emulsions are available.
The movie stock usually came in 400/1000 or 3000 ft length. Occasionally you can get it from Movie supply houses if they have mixed emulsion numbers. The cine guys wants all the same emulsion# and occasionally there are cans left with mismatched #.
Beware of older emulsions like DuPont Superia as these have REM backing. This is carbon powder embedded in the anti halation backing and unlsess you have the stuff for removing it, the film is useless. You can do it by hand, but you will also end up covered in coal-dust and most often with scratched negatives as the REM backing does not want to come off (you literally scrub it off!).
If you check with Kodak you have to go to their Movie Film Division as the "regular" film guys dont know or wont tell you!
Latest price I had on the XX was $127/400ft (2006 November). That will give you about 75 rolls. You can process it in D 76/X-tol or what ever you are using. It usually requires about 10-15% less time, but that depends if you are shooting it at rated speed 250 ASA or if you fiddle with the setting. It will "pull" about one stop and look really good, but it does not push process very well- 400 ASA is about tops.
You will also find that the emulsion has a tendency to have more small specks or gelatine clumps in it. This film is designed to be feed through a projector at 24/25 frames/second and a small speck is not going to show. Of course, when you shoot still pictures - it will be firmly planted right on the nose of your subject!
If you really want to see what GOOD black/white movie stock can do. rent Orson Welles "The Third Man". The ligthtening and the 'contrast' on that film is spectacular. Each shot is a superb still shot- I freezeframe some of the shots and just drool over the quality!
These stocks are coated with a 'slippery" surface as they are made to go through duplicating machines and Neg. to Pos. systems, using mechanical devices. This also means that if you use old style reloadables with spring catches, they are prone to come off and go "flap,flap" at the end of the roll! Use gaffers tape (available from movie supply places to) to tape it onto the take up spool.

 

[MartinP]

I should just make it clear that the Ilford cine can I used was more than twenty years ago and it was sold as out-of-date then, so was probably made at least 25 years ago.

The pricing on the out-of-date 400ft reel of Double-XX mentioned by Tom_A is roughly the same per foot as the 30m price for Fomapan over here. I am going to have a look for Tri-X or HP5 cine-stock (if it exists) though.

I agree completely, The Third Man is a good film and technically wonderful 🙂

 

[JJW]

Good Night and Good Luck was shot in color... according to David Mullen ASC, on Kodak 5218, which is Vision 500T (ISO 500 rated balanced for Tungsten lighting). It was desaturated to B&W in the digital intermediate, or DI.

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=10067&hl=good+night,and,good+luck

There are several interviews with George Clooney where he discusses this. In one he mentions that he originally pitched the film as a B&W period piece to producers and they "wouldn't buy". He had difficulty raising the $7.5 million to shoot it. $7.5 million for a movie with the stars who were in it is short money and Hollywood chump change.

If the film is shot in color, the producers retain the option to release it in color until the film is screened to focus groups and test audiences. If it's shot in B&W, they lose that option.

The other thing he mentions is that it would have taken more time and effort to light it if it were shot in B&W, which is again because of the ISO speed differential between Vision 500T and Super-XX.

I don't know about the Good German, but I would suppose the same workflow was used.

 

[Tom A]

Thanks for the info on "Good Night and Good Luck". You learn something every day!
"The Good German" was evidently Clooneiy's revebge then on the Studio as he used 1946 cameras and lenses (the flare is quite evident) and I suspect that he also shoot it in bl/w from start as he intended to do a period piece, with a 1940's style script, cameras, lenses and movie stock. Too bad that the studio's are so omnipotent with who can do what. one would think that someone with clooney;s stature would have the pull/ On the other hand, Wim Wenders shot the entire "Land of Plenty" with handheld HD panasonic cameras and a total budget of $500 000 (including actors,props,travel and crew as well as the transfer to 35mm color stock). I hope that that scares the living daylight out of the studio's - Long Live independant productions.

 

[Harry Lime]

Touch of Evil (1958) was probably shot on Double-X, which has been around since 1952. It's been pretty much the staple b/w film since it's introduction. I saw the restored version in an empty theater a few years ago and Russell Metty's photography was simply jaw dropping. Absolutely amazing. I used to work about 5 minutes from the location where the endless opening shot was done. Many of the back alleys still look the same, 50 years later.

Double-X (5222) a beautiful emulsion. I've shot it as a movie stock and love it.

The Third Man (1949) may have been shot on Kodak Plus-X Cine Panchromatic Film, which was released in 1941. Robert Krasker did an amazing job with the photography on that film and Carol Reed's direction is flawless. Orson Welles wrote the bit of dialog under the ferris wheel, about the coo-koo clock.

I'm guessing they used Kodak stock, because I have no idea what shape AGFA was in 4 years after the end of the war. Supposedly Jean Cocteau had a heck of a hard time on 'La Belle et la bête' (1946), because the QC of the film stock they were using was all over the map, due to the aftermath of the war.

Oh, and speaking of Kodak Vision2 500T (5218), I couldn't believe how fine grained that film is the first time I saw a cineon scan of it. It's amazing.

 

[Tom A]

Of course in the late 40's there were some interesting stocks like Ferrania too and most likely Ilford. Du Pont had their Superia 64 out at that time too (I still have 394 ft of it) - 6 feet are gone as I tested a process to remove the REM backing - too messy to bother with. I suspect that the stock is probably at 12 ASA now. I got a couple of images of it and they were the ones shot at 25 and 50. They looked about a stop under.
I haven't checked if Kodak still ahs the Plus X as a cine stock. A couple of years ago it was stilla vailable though. A bit too slow for me.
The Agfapan I am currently using up was given to me buy AGFA Canada in the 90's - they had several 400ft cans of mixed emulsions and were supposed to send it back for destruction, but the local agent asked me if i wanted them. Of course - I said yes- free film and all (he had given me some before so I knew what is was like). So there were 20 cans of 400 ft Agfapan 250. I have been carefully using it, but now it is getting to an end. Well, the XX is very similar and will soon have another 6-7000 ft of that in the fridge.

 

[rich815]

I got a hold of some Eastman 5231 cine stock. It had been stored in a closet in Alaska and was expired in 1976. I paid $3.50 for a 100' roll. Seems it's a bit like Plus-X. Examples below.

Would love to get a hold of some of that Super-XX.

 

[mexipike]

Thanks for all the answers, I might pick up some doublex and give it a try. Someone here mentioned that it sometimes has trouble with motorwinders. Any thoughts on how it would work with a contax g?

Thanks,
John

 

[Xmas]

John

The sprocket holes have different standards, the movie cam film is designed to be steady frame to frame, the projector to take wear and tear!
But your G does not use a mechanical sprocket drive so it will be ok, with any of the standards.

Noel