11 September 2001

[clarence]

Kevin, PM sent.

And anyone who has ever worked in a sensitive branch of the government will know how easy it is to keep a secret.

The proliferation of information in the age we live in has not made it easier for us to find Truth. The mass media, and even the internet, presents such an overwhelming flood of often contradictory data that we are hard pressed to find something to believe in. The only intelligent response is to keep an open mind and to keep asking questions.

To all those of you who live in America, I just wish to let you know how much of a difference the relative freedom of information you have over there benefits you. In a country without those said benefits, the difference can be painfully obvious, often in a literal sense.

Clarence

 

[Nick R.]

Thing is, it's the conspiracy folks who don't have the open minds. Once they've come to a conclusion, no sane argument will dissuade them.

 

[aad]

This current conspiracy thing is becoming quite a fad-one fellow was quoted as saying "fuel from planes can't melt metal" in a story on academics joining in-except this academic was an economist.

Traces of molten aluminum in the WTC wreckage-supposedly evidence of thermite. I wonder what planes are made of?

 

[akptc]

While I have no earthly idea about the validity of any of the 9-11 related conspiracy theories floating out there, I must respectfully disagree with some of the stronger "you must be an idiot to believe it" comments. I think that, whether with force or "daily bread", controlling the opinions of many and the behavior of most has been done too many times, recent history included, to be dismissed. I’ve grown to respect and often appreciate the voices of dissent, even those who question the very foundations of my own environment, as in the end, all questions deserve to be asked, IMHO. I and many of my family members owe our personal freedom to people who dared to ask difficult questions. I guess what I am trying to say is that food for thought, no matter how sour-tasting, is still food for thought. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Pherdinand]

Very well said, it is becoming a religion. As well as the conspiracy theory is becoming a religion.
And that's how religions start, they try to convert people from other religions and noone likes to listen to the believers on the other side. Moreover, the other side is always the one of the fools, idiots or liars.

Maybe ina few thousand years it will settle down, as good old religions, and all the inquisitions and crusades and holy wars will be over. I myself have to go now, i am visiting soon the new kid of my sudanese muslim colleague, together with my italian friend and his chinese wife. 😛
They don't hate me being an atheist.

 

[jrong]

The problem with keeping an "open mind" is that you have to judge to what degree it is "open".

i.e open enough for all sorts of rubbish to fall in and make sense?? 😀

Jin

 

[Kevin]

PMs answered!

The most educated, informed people I know here are now starting to tell me that someone must be pulling strings.

For the americans here interested in going down this long dark path, the year 1913 is a recent and important one for you.

As an aside, do you recall that Democritus hypothesized that there must be some kind of eternal, invisible building blocks of matter, which he called atoms?

He obviously could not see these tiny particles but logically reasoned they must exist. Logic is an extremely powerful tool one should be using in the quest for any truth, especially this one.

Finally, a truth doesn't change when we are being lied to. Moreover, there are no national or international laws which deter and punish the acts of lying and deceit - except in a legitimate court of law ;-)

 

[rover]

Good morning all.

Again a request as we all recognize the potential inflammatory conversation that can come of this thread. Please continue your conversation with respect and courtesy for each other. Remember, our rules of posting, simply stated like your mom would say it, treat others the way you would want to be treated blah blah blah.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item2

This applies to all threads, on topic or off.

 

[Nick R.]

I think that most non-conspiricists are fairly open minded while conspiricy believers are rather closed about dissenting opinions. They usually label those who don't believe them as dupes and fools.
I worked in a materials testing lab for 5 years using destructive testing methods on concrete, metals, and fabric. From my own experience, nothing I've read or saw that day isn't explained by an obvious chain of events. One of the things we routinely tested was the flamability of office furniture, including rugs and decor. If you'd have seen how some of these things burn, you would not be surprised at the intensity of the fires in the WTC.

 

[kbg32]

I heard Paul is dead.

Given the quality of the output of his music, I say he still is.

 

[xayraa33]

PMs answered!

The most educated, informed people I know here are now starting to tell me that someone must be pulling strings.

For the americans here interested in going down this long dark path, the year 1913 is a recent and important one for you.

As an aside, do you recall that Democritus hypothesized that there must be some kind of eternal, invisible building blocks of matter, which he called atoms?

He obviously could not see these tiny particles but logically reasoned they must exist. Logic is an extremely powerful tool one should be using in the quest for any truth, especially this one.

Finally, a truth doesn't change when we are being lied to. Moreover, there are no national or international laws which deter and punish the acts of lying and deceit - except in a legitimate court of law ;-)

was it in the month of December in 1913?

 

[Krasnaya_Zvezda]

Given the quality of the output of his music, I say he still is.

😀 😀 😀 Thanks for starting me off today with a big laugh!

 

[Kevin]

I think that most non-conspiricists are fairly open minded while conspiricy believers are rather closed about dissenting opinions. They usually label those who don't believe them as dupes and fools.

You are obviously projecting and false-labelling individuals who wish to analyse and understand the world's existing power structure. Throwing the word "conspiracy" around is another one of those simple word games which attempts to discredit the whole rational learning process.

It is important to analyse this case based on solid engineering principles and physics. Ad hominem statements of your kind are not valid or even really suitable for the intelligent, critically-thinking people in this forum.

I worked in a materials testing lab for 5 years using destructive testing methods on concrete, metals, and fabric. From my own experience, nothing I've read or saw that day isn't explained by an obvious chain of events. One of the things we routinely tested was the flamability of office furniture, including rugs and decor. If you'd have seen how some of these things burn, you would not be surprised at the intensity of the fires in the WTC.

Concrete does not pulverize to fine dust when burnt at high temperatures. In order to bring down buildings of that size you need to get at their cores. This is called a controlled demolition.

The 47 steel supports in each building were conveniently blown into 30 foot sections for easy transport. More than 500 people reported hearing multiple detonations, firemen included. Explosives were used from top to bottom.

Who and why are not really important topics in the early analysis stage. What are important are physics and the average Joe's conclusion (beyond a reasonable doubt) that three NY buildings were blown to bits by the use of thousands of perfectly planted explosive devices.

 

[Kevin]

was it in the month of December in 1913?

😉 I suspect you know where you're heading.

 

[enochRoot]

hmm...wouldn't be the federal reserve act, would it?

 

[xayraa33]

for most people of this world, it is sometimes better to stay in a state of ignorance, and that way you can actually fall asleep at night.

 

[dcsang]

"Another story suppressed by the liars and whores of the press" - "Who Shot The Pope" by Sucking Chest Wound

Like most stories - there's "truth" and then there's "hearsay" and unless any of us were actually there and lived through this and knew what was going on in the MOST intimate way (whether it be "a government plot" or "a brutal act of terrorism"); all we have are theories and conjecture and opinion and each one of us has a bit of each to call our own. So, can we please drop this topic now so we can slide BACK into talking about gear and photography and rangefinders?

Because really, this is going nowhere fast . . .

Thank you
Dave

P.S. the quote above has absolutely nothing to do with this story nor does it have anything to do with anyone here but I thought it aptly described how some folks feel towards this particular incident.

 

[Nick R.]

I've destroyed concrete in hydraulic testing machines that exert tens of thousands of tons of pressure. It does turn to powder at least partly and actually sounds like it's exploding when it breaks up. I've burned metals and materials in fires that got so hot they've broken the safety glass on the experimental chamber (designed not to happen). I've examined structual elements from buiding collapses and destructively tested the steel for failure analysis. You have your facts; I have my experience.

 

[Al Patterson]

Concrete does not pulverize to fine dust when burnt at high temperatures. In order to bring down buildings of that size you need to get at their cores. This is called a controlled demolition.

Here is where your arguement falls down. (Pun intended.) Concrete pulverizes when it fall 100 stories under the pancake effect caused by gravity. Period, end of story.

Continue to believe the ravings of the lunatics who spew this nonsense if you wish, but I for one believe that we had a bunch of nuts fly planes into buildings. period. And consider yourself lucky I'm not a moderator, I'd have deleted this thread long ago. I don't need this drivel wasting space on this formerly fine forum...

 

[xayraa33]

lets see, the iron curtain falls down on cue , circa 1990, and a new bogyman appears on the scene.
the west as co -existed for better or worse or some where in between for the last 1350 years with the islamic world.