2.0 Sonnars for Contax

[slungu]

Hello everybody,

I was wondering what the opinion is about the two 2.0 Sonnars for Contax - the 50mm and the 85mm. I got myself a 50/2 that I intend to use on the Bessa and the NEX on a M-adapter but was wondering how they compare to other old rangefinder lenses.

Regards, Stefan

 

[sparrow6224]

The 85/2 is famous, but I have not used it. I doubt you'll find negative words about it. The 50/2 I had, and was amazed by, and stupidly sold, and now seek again, to supplement my 50/1.5. If you're using color, and certainly on the NEX, the issue of coated v uncoated will matter to you. The ones with the red "T" are coated, and a few without it, but not enough to worry about -- you can assume no "T" generally means it's not coated.

 

[sparrow6224]

Also, I forgot to mention: Look either for Carl Zeiss Jena glass with historically valid serial number below 3m. That is, numbers known to exist -- use web search for Zeiss serial numbers. The Jena's below 3m are pre-war or, quite rarely, even during the war, while 3m and up are after the war. Many are Russian fakes. The other safe bet is Carl Zeiss-Opton, any number. These were never faked apparently. Opton is the name given the Zeiss lenses made in West Germany in the new plant established after the war. Jena was the plant that all the glass was made in before the war, but was on the eastern / Soviet side of the divide in post-war years, and was left in rather ragged straits by the personnel/equipment that either took off for the West or was sent back to mother Russia. [If I have any of that wrong, other more knowledgeable RFFers will certainly correct me.]

 

[sevo]

Also, I forgot to mention: Look either for Carl Zeiss Jena glass with historically valid serial number below 3m. That is, numbers known to exist -- use web search for Zeiss serial numbers. The Jena's below 3m are pre-war or, quite rarely, even during the war, while 3m and up are after the war. Many are Russian fakes. The other safe bet is Carl Zeiss-Opton, any number. These were never faked apparently.

Going by the front ring might not be enough - I would not be surprised if there were some Jupiters with sham Opton front ring about. But the Opton lenses otherwise share nothing but the general mount and optical formula with the Jena ones - such a fake is obvious once the lens body itself is compared.

The easiest safe indicator is a brass mount - the USSR lenses (and most of the semi-reliable post war illegitimate Jena garage production) are aluminium alloy, while pre-war and Opton lenses (and post-war Jena lenses made under contract for the IIa/IIIa) are chromed brass. You'll miss the odd few legitimate war time alloy lenses (and perhaps GDR Jena domestic production) if you apply that filter - but these are better left to experienced collectors, as some might be fake.

 

[Highway 61]

(...) while pre-war and Opton lenses (and post-war Jena lenses made under contract for the IIa/IIIa) are chromed brass.

Some post-war Jena lenses made under contract for the IIa/IIIa are made of light alloy outside and hardened alodine inside with no brass at all but they are still optically superb (I have an early postwar 50/2 T like that, and I take care of it believe me).

I don't get why the discussion went towards Russian fakes - we are discussing Contax mount Sonnars, not LTM ones. I haven't seen any fake Sonnar made off a Jupiter in Contax mount yet.

 

[slungu]

Thanks guys, The 50/2 is a coated Opton, that's one good thing, I'll try that out first and then take a decision if I want to look at the other longer thn normal options from the old Contax rangefinders. I am just a little curious why there is so little information about these compared to, say, the old Leica lenses.

Regards, Stefan

 

[batterytypehah!]

I don't get why the discussion went towards Russian fakes - we are discussing Contax mount Sonnars, not LTM ones. I haven't seen any fake Sonnar made off a Jupiter in Contax mount yet.

Maybe you haven't been looking hard enough... http://www.taunusreiter.de/Cameras/Zeiss_Fakes.html

 

[skipjack]

I have and use both lens. The 50mm is a good all around lens and stacks up as well as or better than 50mm lens of that same era/vintage. I do agree that the 50 1.5 is a better lens in terms of how it renders. The 85mm, I have used for some terrific portraits - it is a lens deserving of it's excellent reputation. This is all dependent upon condition, there is a difference in samples. My advise is to keep and use both.

 

[roboflick]

Jupiter 9 is also a great lens, I got a perfect sample from Fedka.com, i use it on my leica with adapter and contax ii and iiia, not bad for 100 dollars, jupiter 9 is Russian copy of Zeiss 85/2


Nik

 

[roboflick]

no T doesn't mean that the lens is not coated, I have beautiful Zeiss Opton and Carl Zeiss Sonnars from the 50's that are both multicoated without T

Nik

 

[MISH]

I am a big fan of both those lenses

and I just made my first KEH purchase ........ a lens cap for each.... should be here tomorrow🙂

 

[Highway 61]

Maybe you haven't been looking hard enough... http://www.taunusreiter.de/Cameras/Zeiss_Fakes.html

I'm sorry but this article deals with Leica screw mount Sonnar fakes forged off Jupiter 3 lenses.

Here we are discussing about Contax rangefinder mount Sonnars and to my knowledge, they didn't get faked, for a simple reason : they are easily available, so there is no market for fakes in this mount. On the contrary, given that so few genuine LTM Sonnars were made, and that there was a demand from Leica bodies owners for Zeiss lenses to mount on their cameras, the fakes market naturally popped-up by itself out there in the FSU where tons of LTM Jupiter lenses were waiting to be faked into Zeiss Sonnars.

If you can show me a fake Sonnar in Contax rangefinder mount, I'd be happy to look at it.

 

[Highway 61]

I am a big fan of both those lenses

and I just made my first KEH purchase ........ a lens cap for each.... should be here tomorrow🙂

Seems to be quite a nice W-Nikkor-C 35/3.5 on the Contax IIa at 9 o'clock 😀

 

[MISH]

"Seems to be quite a nice W-Nikkor-C 35/3.5 on the Contax IIa at 9 o'clock"


good eye Highway 61, you are correct sir (now if I could only find a lens cap for that without paying the proverbial arm and leg)

 

[David Murphy]

The coated 50mm F2 Sonnar is a first rate and very usable lens. The older uncoated collapsible version is quite nice too, not as sharp, a bit flare prone, and hard to find in good condition. It will make good images however when used with consideration. (the collapsible version is a mechanical masterpiece as well)

 

[batterytypehah!]

I'm sorry but this article deals with Leica screw mount Sonnar fakes forged off Jupiter 3 lenses.

Here we are discussing about Contax rangefinder mount Sonnars and to my knowledge, they didn't get faked, for a simple reason : they are easily available, so there is no market for fakes in this mount. On the contrary, given that so few genuine LTM Sonnars were made, and that there was a demand from Leica bodies owners for Zeiss lenses to mount on their cameras, the fakes market naturally popped-up by itself out there in the FSU where tons of LTM Jupiter lenses were waiting to be faked into Zeiss Sonnars.

If you can show me a fake Sonnar in Contax rangefinder mount, I'd be happy to look at it.

You are misreading it. Quote (my emphasis):

Fake-suspect ?
- Every coated 1.5/5cm or 2/8.5cm alloy Sonnar, in particular with Leica Thread Mount (LTM) .

By the way, fake Contax RF bodies are also mentioned on the same page. It stands to reason that only a moron crook would sell a disguised Kiev with a genuine Zeiss lens...

Of course it's more lucrative to fake an LTM Sonnar, particularly at today's relative prices for Contax vs. LTM lenses. That doesn't mean fakes in Contax mount don't exist.

 

[batterytypehah!]

Another quote:

Zeiss Sonnar lenses of World-War-II-era are often faked from vulgar Russian Jupiter lenses by simple changing the front-ring, and sometimes engraving the barrell with "Made in Germany" or something.

How does that turn Contax into LTM?

 

[sevo]

Of course it's more lucrative to fake an LTM Sonnar, particularly at today's relative prices for Contax vs. LTM lenses. That doesn't mean fakes in Contax mount don't exist.

I don't know whether the lenses ever were faked for the purpose of selling them separately. But in the early nineties, when FSU citizens discovered the joy of selling on German and Austrian (and later Polish and Czech) flea markets, Kievs dressed as Contax cameras, complete with the matching Jupiter in disguise, were quite a common sight. The fakes were limited to altering the lens front ring and camera top plate, though.

 

[Highway 61]

That doesn't mean fakes in Contax mount don't exist.

Yes - actually there is one model that exists, it's the famous

C a r l Z e i s s J e n a Sonnar 5sm 1:2

which was sold altogether with Kiev bodies painted black and disguised into Contax bodies with a bad Carl Zeiss Jena logo stamped on the frontplate near the focusing wheel.

But this attempt has been so pityful as a fakery that everybody could notice that this was a fake.

I also remember a very few Jupiter 3 lenses in Contax RF mount wearing a genuine prewar CZJ frontplate, but those were very distinguishable (different barrels).

This very fakery market didn't match many customers and those lenses remained for sale for a very long time, unsuccessfully. On the contrary, the market for fake LTM Sonnars remained quite dynamic, people seemed to want to gamble hoping that the cheap lens they would receive in the mail would turn out to be a genuine Zeiss one eventually.

I'd say that onwards from now, almost 100% of the Sonnars in Contax mount you will find at auction are genuine ones, whatever model they are, while more than 95% of the Sonnars in LTM will be fakes.

And remember - nobody can tell for sure that Carl Zeiss Jena actually manufactured some Sonnars in LTM, most of the "genuine" LTM Sonnars rather being some contemporary aftermarket conversions made in German workshops, either for military purpose or to answer to special customers demands.

There is also that "ZK" thing - with the same legends and the same fakeries.

 

[sparrow6224]

I have seen fake sonnars in Contax mount as recently as a week ago... you know where. Also, here are two questions that've been bugging me: 1. Which Zeiss 50mm sonnars went to f 11, which to f 16 and which to f 22? I can't figure it out nor can I find info in web searches; 2. Are the newer looking brass/chrome 50mm sonnars that say simply Carl Zeiss (no Jena, no Opton), with serial numbers generally in the 1 millon range, West German lenses, just missing the Opton? Or something else? Thanks to any who can help.