2.1cm Nikkor O on the F3

Phil_F_NM

Phil_F_NM

Camera hacker
Local time
5:50 PM
Joined
Jun 14, 2004
Messages
5,506
Location
Mid-Atlantic region
View My Gallery
Has anyone modified an F3 for use with the 2.1cm Nikkor O lens?
It looks like all that is necessary is to add a very small tab to locate the rear portion of the lens in order to keep it straight while mounting so as not to impact the underside of the mirror.

Yes, I know about the dangers of using this lens on the F3, that is why I am asking about a modification.

Thanks all.

Phil Forrest
 
Phil, I have not used it on the F3, but have used it extensively on the F2 with mirror lock-up. Looking forward to seeing you in NYC at Puck Fair in February. I will bring my F2T with Cal's DE-1. Jean-Marc
 
Phil_F_NM said:
Has anyone modified an F3 for use with the 2.1cm Nikkor O lens?
It looks like all that is necessary is to add a very small tab to locate the rear portion of the lens in order to keep it straight while mounting...
Click to expand...

I can't say whether or not there are any other clearance problems with the mirror box, underside of the mirror assembly(a very possible issue), or shutter curtains. I can say that a number of the lenses would require an additional modification.

The early versions of all of the F-mount Nikkors had a lip that overhang the body's flange by a significant degree. On the Auto-Nikkors this lip was part of the f/stop ring. With the 21 it is part of the chrome mounting flange. None of these lenses will fit any Nikon with an in-body meter. This includes even the metered Nikkormats. This lip is far deeper (>3 mm) than the lip of the later pre-AI Nikkors that has to be removed to fit AI bodies like the F-3.

I have an "incomplete" 21 of the original type that had the deep overhang. Some earlier owner had it modified, likely to fit a Nikkormat FT or FTn, and at some time in its history it was re-assembled incorrectly (missing a shim/spacer ??) which prevents it from focusing correctly. It's had a rough and probably unsavory life (the serial number was ground off and painted over long before I acquired it) and I've yet been motivated enough to work on repairing it properly. The lens doesn't use a classic double helicoid so it's not a matter of adjusting it or finding the right lead when reassembling it. Without a factory manual I can't say for sure, but the best I can figure it that there was a spacer, likely custom lapped for each lens and now missing, that was used to position the optical unit in the focusing mount. As mine stands at present, it focuses way past infinity when the mount is set to the infinity mark.
 
Raid, I would think you'd get crazy chromatic aberrations. The rear lens is extremely close to the film plane.

As for adapters, you'd have to get a Nikon F to S adapter (Cosina super rare), then Nikon S to Leica M (Amedeo).
 
They now have cheap adapters on ebay for Nikon to Canon FD, for less than $20, and then I could use my Adapter B for Canon FD lens to Leica. This is not the problem. The optical issue is a problem.
CametaQuest has an adapter for Nikon to Leica for $175 by Rayqual.
 
Vickko said:
Raid, I would think you'd get crazy chromatic aberrations. The rear lens is extremely close to the film plane.

As for adapters, you'd have to get a Nikon F to S adapter (Cosina super rare), then Nikon S to Leica M (Amedeo).
Click to expand...

Why not get a Nikon F to Leica M adaper? They're out there, just check ebay. I think I have a friend who used to use one.

As for this lens on a Leica M9, it would work fine. The rear element sits 7mm from the film plane according to Nikon, so it will easily clear the shutter. The look of the image is easily corrected in post. I used a Super Angulon f/3.4 on my old M9 and it worked fantastically to make images.

Phil Forrest
 
Yes, you can use the 2.1cm on a Leica M, and the M9. However, the results are absolutely abysmal, with vignetting and purple casts that are 100x worse than a 21mm f/4 Skopar. It is a waste of time.

This is the second time I've warned of this recently. I'll have to take an image tomorrow possibly to show just how horrendous it is.

It's great on film though. As for the OP request...just get an F2, they are cheap...
 
The following image was taken with the Super Angulon on the M9.

img_l1001679_E.jpg


All of the images in this album were with the same combo. I don't have any in raw color but they are not hard to correct these days. The rear element of the SA is closer to the film plane than that same dimension with the Nikkor. Bill Pierce just posted a thread about lens/camera combo naysayers. Maybe the results that Raid will get will be to his liking.

So, enough of that off topic stuff (no problem Raid, I enouraged it a bit myself.) I posted this about use of the O Nikkor on the Nikon F3 and wanted to know if anyone has used this lens with this camera.

Phil Forrest
 
Phil_F_NM said:
lens/camera combo naysayers.
Click to expand...

Phil, I've actually done it, and tried to make a corrective profile in CornerFix. I couldn't get anything close to correction. It's a bad combo, period, and your personal experience with a completely different lens isn't really relevant (and in my opinion, that image is pretty muddy).

Today it is completely overcast, so it's the best possible conditions for this lens, and yet, here it is on the M9 in my backyard. Horrendous purple cast, overexposed in the center but almost completely black in the corners (exposing better in the center makes it worse). Smearing in the corners, which is not the lens, because it's brilliant on film.

m9-21nikkor.jpg


Now as for your original question, I doubt anyone has put in that piece to an F3. Why would they? That seems needlessly complicated. An F2 with no prism, since you don't need it, would be less than $100, probably way less. Seems like a better idea.

Now if you want to use a hammer where a screwdriver is what you need, you could be an idiot like me and get an F-S adapter just to use this lens on a Nikon SP. A super awesome combo but it sure was an expensive way around the problem, but I'm an expert on that. So I understand where you are coming from to a degree. Here's some TMX souped in FX-39 with the Nikon SP / 21mm Nikkor from yesterday:

rb-1027s.jpg
 
The vignetting is still awful, even more so on a typical day with more contrast. If you would like I would be happy to send you the DNG file for you to fool with. PM me if you would like that and I will upload it for you.
 
Corran, thanks for your reply, however curt it may be. The formulation of the O Nikkor and the Super Angulon f/3.4 are very close, almost identical, so the comparison is definitely apt in this case.
As for using an F3, I want to use a ball peen hammer where a framing hammer could be used but I don't need to pull nails. I already have an F3 and would like the features it offers over the F2. I knew there would be someone on this forum telling me to buy a camera to use this lens instead of actually working through the engineering issues to make the lens work on the camera.

Raid, I think the Nikkor would work on the M9 for B&W photos though in harsh light you can get some flare from the rear element and a reflection of the glass in front of the sensor. My old SA had modern multicoating and that particular sample was recoated only a year or so prior to taking those images, so the rear element reflection was nil.

Phil Forrest
 
Phil_F_NM said:
Raid, I think the Nikkor would work on the M9 for B&W photos though in harsh light you can get some flare from the rear element and a reflection of the glass in front of the sensor. My old SA had modern multicoating and that particular sample was recoated only a year or so prior to taking those images, so the rear element reflection was nil.

Phil Forrest
Click to expand...

Thank you for the affirmation, Phil. I may try it out soon. Who knows? It may turn out OK.
 
My 2.1cm lens from Maitani arrived today.
I finished work and rode home to get to figuring out what it will take to get the 2.1cm Nikkor O on the F3.

Just two things:
1. I have an early version, pre 225xxx, so the mounting ring is about .2mm too deep to clear the lip on the F3 mounting flange which is flared wider to hold the Ai metering ring.
The lens mounting ring can be turned down by .2mm to work perfectly with the F3.

2. The camera should have the lug just inside the lens flange at about the 10 o'clock position in order to locate and center the rear element and prevent it from hitting the mirror. If it does hit the base of the mirror, no harm will be done unless an extraordinary amount of force is used and the carriage of the mirror is bent. Granted, the rear element could possibly become weged in the camera between the mirror and the floor of the box where the metering cell is located. Addition of this lug should be no problem at all. I can simply fab a small piece of brass at the shop then JB Weld it to the interior of the box just behind the flange.

So it's about 2 hours of work and 24 hours of curing time for the epoxy.

I'm not sure I'll go ahead with it as I have an F2 on the way in March. It would be cool to use this lens on my trip to New Mexico during the last two weeks of February but I can be patient. We'll see what happens.

One day, I'll get myself a used full frame digital, hack it up and stick this lens on it.

Phil Forrest
 
Raid, no need to modify the lens at all. You need to get an adapter to use F lenses on M cameras and the lip on the mounting flange needs to be deep enough to turn the locking ring on the lens to mount it to the adapter. If you have a later version of this lens, after serial #225xxx the ring may be shallow enough to mount. If I were in your shoes, I'd modify an adapter before a good copy of the lens.

Do you have an F or F2? If so, look into the camera with a lens off and check out the tab at about the 10 o'clock position.

IMG_0703.jpg


This tab needs to be added to the adapter if it isn't already there. I think the Novoflex adapters have the tabs already but they are quite pricey. If the tab isn't there, the rear element will slightly rotate inside the camera and will contact the inner surfaces.

Phil Forrest
 
Phil, not to butt in again, but I fooled around briefly with this lens and my D800 and D700. In both cameras it impacts the AF sensor well in the bottom of the mirror box, and it scrapes along the edge of the box as well. It wouldn't be a matter of just adding the tab.

Any reason why you really, really want to use this lens on digital??
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom