23 1/2" f/6.3 Zeiss Anastigmat Convertible by Ross London, what is it?

[Crazy Fedya]

Dear LF RFFers,
This is the first time I am posting in this section of RFF. I have fell into a interesting deal that included Speed Graphic with a bunch of lenses, flash bulbs, flashes, etc. One of the lenses is a 23 1/2" f/6.3 Zeiss Anastigmat Convertible Ross London brass barrel lens. There is very little info online about it. I wasn't able to find anything on Ebay either. Both front and rear groups are marked as 23 1/2", but they have different serial numbers. There is no sliding aperture scale. There are also some scratches and separation in both groups.
I know I can use it on Speed Graphic thanks to rear shutter. I am just wondering whether I should keep it to begin with, and what would it be good for.

I am not a large format shooter yet, but I would like to shoot some 4x5 negatives.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Dear Sam,

Great portrait lens on 8x10. If I didn't already have a 21 inch f/7.7 Ross I'd ask you what you wanted for it.

Probably not so good for 4x5. In fact probably impossible: how much extension does the Speed Graphic have? Probably not even enough for the whole lens, let alone a convertible element. And will the lens even fit on the front of the Speed Graphic? The flange on my 21 inch Ross must be six inches/15cm across.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Crazy Fedya]

Roger,
Thank you for your response. I guess, I should have kept that Deardorff, if I want to use this lens. Speed Graphic came with a lens board, drilled out for this lens. Also, I received a Korona VI 5x7 view camera with destroyed front standart, drilled out to accomodate this lens. As far, as price goes, I wouldn't even know where to start, since there is no reference online.

Edit.. I have seen on one of the sites that if one of the groups is 23 1/2" and the other is 19 1/4", using both of them gives 12" focal length to the lens. Since I have both groups at 23 1/2", what would be the combined focal length? I know I can get home, mount it and try to measure it, but I am hoping someone knows the answer.

 

[Mark C]

It sounds like it might well be a Protar VIIa design. A picture, or at least exact transcription of the information on each cell would help.

If it is a Protar, the cells will normally have apertures of f12.5 individually. When two same length cells are used together you get f6.3. The combined focal length in this case would be about 13 1/2".

I believe Ross licensed Zeiss designs, but don't know much about that; Roger Hicks probably does.

 

[Crazy Fedya]

Thank you, Mark. I will post a picture later tonight, when I will get home. As far as I remember, each cell says 23 1/2" Zeiss Patent, and on the opposite side of the ring is a 4 digit serial number, different one for each cell. Also, one cell is slightly larger in diameter, than both barrel and other cell, which are the same. Barrel is engraved with Zeiss Convertible Anastigmat, and Ross London under aperture scale on opposite side of the barrel.

 

[Mark C]

If the cells are the same focal length and the actual glass diameter (and f/stop) are different, then it is probably a different design. Sometimes though, just the mount would be bigger on one to fit with particular shutter setups or to allow for other size cells that might be used.

 

[Crazy Fedya]

Well,here are images of the lens.

 

[Honus]

If you can adapt that for M-Mount, I'll take it 😀

 

[Mark C]

Interesting. Does it say f6.3 somewhere? No other markings on the front and rear? Is the diameter of the glass roughly the same for both cells?

I'm surprised the serial numbers of the cells are that far apart. Not what you'd expect with Zeiss or B&L, but I don't know about Ross.

 

[Crazy Fedya]

Mark,
Aperture scale on the barrel starts with f/6.3 and goes to f/64. Do you think this lens was assembled from two different 23 1/2 inch lenses?

 

[Mark C]

No, I don't. But would still like to know whether there are any other markings (like max f/stop for the cells) and whether the cells have the same diameter glass. I'm going to assume they do.

Sure seems like a Protar. It is older than I expected, and think that explains the difference in names. But I don't have literature on them that old (pre-1900).

It should be a nice lens. I believe that is about the focal length of the shorter of the two cells that Walker Evans Zeiss Protar was made of. He made some wonderful pictures with the single cells. Look at the views across the river at Easton, PA. Probably some of the Bethlehem pictures too. I don't believe he had that lens yet when he was here in West Virginia earlier that same year.

 

[Crazy Fedya]

Mark,
I do not see any other markings anywhere. I have photographed all writings there is on the lens. Glass diameter seems to be either the same or very, very close. If you look at the pictures, you can see the size difference on the metal enclosures, that house glass elements. I think, the thickness difference is about 1/64th of an inch. But glass looks very much the same size.

 

[Crazy Fedya]

If you can adapt that for M-Mount, I'll take it 😀

Sorry, but I think Voigtlander have discontinued that adapter. May be someone still has NOS one? 😀

 

[Phil_F_NM]

This is fascinating!
As for the bellows draw on the Speed Graphic, you probably won't get infinity focus on this lens if it is greater than 12". My 12" Wollensak will just barely focus at infinity on a Graphic with the bellows stretched all the way out. Not to worry though, the lens boards are common enough (and you can cut up that Sinar board I gave you) that you could make an adapter to hold the lens out about 4" in front of the front standard. You'd need to support it well but it could easily be done.
I can't wait to see the photos you make from this, Sam!
Off topic: tell your daughters that I'm happy they like the camera! I wish I had another, so each could have one.

Phil Forrest

 

[Crazy Fedya]

Phil,
Thank you very much. Speed Graphic actually came with 3 or 4 lens boards, one of which is actually drilled out for this lens. I think I will want to use this lens for a portrait, so I am not really looking for infinity focus. I will try to mount it. I also receive a 120 film adapter for the camera, so I might be able to get some shots sooner than later.

As a response to OT: I gave Gabriela Veronicas Hello Kitty camera, and conflict got resolved. Thank you for the thought.

 

[Mark C]

Closer requires even more bellows extension. I may have something shorter that would work better for you. I can poke around and see.

This lens is really intended for larger format. It should cover 8x10 with loads of movement. I'll look up the specs later. Should have good coverage for some of the banquet formats.

 

[Mark C]

I apologize for repeating some of the things Roger had already said early on. I guess he must have been posting at the same time I was yesterday, and I didn't go back upstream to notice.

 

[Crazy Fedya]

Mark,
You are absolutely right. I got confused about focus. I will have to come up with mount extension for this lens. I have seen in one of the threads for DYI handheld 4x5s, that Ikea plastic pot is used to make a lens board. I will look for something similar.
Thank you for all responses.

 

[Crazy Fedya]

I have looked into attaching and using this lens to take actual photos. I figured, I will attachit to Korona VI 5x7 body, I got with this package. It has no lens or ground glass. Then, I will position my Voigtlander Avus with Polaroid back and lens removed behind it, setting focus on a ground glass on Avus, stop lens down all the way, use a lens cap for shutter, and Fuji Fp100 film in Polaroid back. This should yield something. Or other.

 

[goamules]

If you have a 5x7 Korona camera, it might have enough bellows for the 13.5" combined focal lenght. But this is really an 8x10 or 11x14 lens. Rather than trying to get "something" with your idea, why not just get a film holder and some 5x7 film? You can still find it, I shoot it all the time.