400TX in HC-110 looks pale

[DGA]

I love Neopan 400.
I know how to process it and I constantly like my results, in any exposure index.
But, for economic reasons I took a ride into bulk load, I just had to.
Alas, Fuji stopped making my beloved emulsion in 100 feet.
I went to Kodak's Old'n faithful - TRI-X 400.
For the cost of one roll of Neopan 400 I can make me 3 paved 400TX. Fantastic.
Multiply that by approximately 30 per month (my do) and it sums-up to quite a lot of money.

Still, after more than 100 rolls, I haven't grasped the essence of it.
Except for high EI (1600 & one try of 3200) the result negatives always
come out pale and more transparent than what I got from my Neopan 400.

I use HC-110 (European Concentrate) and already tried many combinations with dilution B and even H.
I always use fresh developer for each tank and ony up to 2 rolls per tank.

I've started thinking that this is how the mighty TX should look, until one day,
due to urgency, I gave some exposed film to a well known
photo-lab with years of experience in manual development.
To my surprise, the negatives came out brilliant, thick and contrasty
("with plenty of flesh" as I've heard some people say).
I know they use HC-110 as well, since I once asked them for the developer the use.
But how did they do it, and why I cannot?
I'm frustrated 🙁

Does anyone have good experience with 400TX (current version) and HC-110 (EURO version)?
I'm all ears.

 

[David William White]

Sounds like you need to develop longer. Probably what the lab did. How long have you been going at B, and at what temperature?

 

[mfogiel]

I have just recently tried TriX in HC110 and the results are nothing special, I used a 1+45 dilution - the grain is very fine but the acutance is not there and the tonality is good but not exceptional. I would suggest the following for TRI-X:
ISO 800-1000 DIAFINE
ISO 320-400 D76 1+1
ISO 200 D76 1+1, Rodinal 1+50 or, best of all, Prescysol EF or Pyrocat HD

My best results so far have been with Prescysol EF and D76 1+1, Xtol is ok but looks muddy, Acufine is not bad, but I prefer Diafine for speed, have yet to try Tmax developer.

 

[DGA]

Sounds like you need to develop longer. Probably what the lab did. How long have you been going at B, and at what temperature?

6.5min @ 20°c (68°f), agitating 1min at start then 5-6 inversions every minute.

 

[colker]

6.5min @ 20°c (68°f), agitating 1min at start then 5-6 inversions every minute.

you could agitate more. i always went for 10s long STRONG agitation every minute.
i am not a fan of HC 110. D76 gives more punch.

 

[russianRF]

I would suggest the following for TRI-X:
ISO 800-1000 DIAFINE
ISO 320-400 D76 1+1
ISO 200 D76 1+1, Rodinal 1+50 or, best of all, Prescysol EF or Pyrocat HD

Thank you for that break-down mfogiel. I appreciate someone with experience recommending which developer is best suited to Tri-X at whch ISO. 🙂

 

[DGA]

you could agitate more. i always went for 10s long STRONG agitation every minute.
i am not a fan of HC 110. D76 gives more punch.

I even tried that, I doubled the agitation intervals to 6 inversions every 30 seconds.
I usually do not agitate strongly because of the small bubbles forming on the film (I hate those).

 

[bidnez]

I guess this is not what you asked for, but ïn the last year I´ve abandoned everything else in favour of TriX and XTOL - for ISO 400, 800 1600 and 3200. I do as Kodak suggest. And I´m very happy.

 

[Keith]

If all else fails I'm almost certain that Freestyle's new Legacy Pro 400 is Neopan ... they claim it's made in Japan by one of the world's premier film makers so I don't really see what else it could be. They have it in 100ft rolls and it's much cheaper than Tri-X and only a couple of dollars more than Arista Premium which is supposedly Tr-X repackaged.

I like Tri-X but it ain't no Neopan substitute ... YMMV of course! :angel: 😛

 

[thetooth]

i use tri-x at 200 asa with hc-110 in dilution b . develop for 5 minutes at 68 degrees . i agitate for the first 30 seconds then 10 seconds every minute . works for me . there are alot of combinations with this film/developer your best bet would be to experiment with some different times and temperatures , also did you ask the lab what their combination was ?

 

[DGA]

i use tri-x at 200 asa with hc-110 in dilution b . develop for 5 minutes at 68 degrees . i agitate for the first 30 seconds then 10 seconds every minute . works for me . there are alot of combinations with this film/developer your best bet would be to experiment with some different times and temperatures , also did you ask the lab what their combination was ?

thanks,
I did. They wouldn't tell me. They regard that as a "professional secret" 😎

I'll try the harsh agitation next time (today, I assume).

 

[Matt(1pt4)]

"the result negatives always
come out pale and more transparent"

Are you sure you just aren't under developing? It certainly sounds like you are. I know it might seem silly at this point, but make sure you are getting dilution, time, temp and agitation right.

 

[dfoo]

Sounds like under developing. I used to use HC110 with TriX. I'd have to look back on my records, but I always agitate 5-10s at the top of each minute. 1 inversion per second. Try a minute more. I switched to straight D76 and XTOL after that, which I found better for TriX.

At any rate I'd develop longer, not agitate more. Try an extra minute!

 

[DGA]

Thanks, Matt.
It's not silly at all.
I only came to the conclusion that something it wrong with my development when I saw the results of the professional lab.
before that, I was sure my developments are okay.

My negs are printed and scanned well enough.
Its the lab's results that made me think again of my process.

My quick test method is to put a black piece of negative (the tail or head of the roll) against a lamp and clearly see only the filament and the contour of the glass.
With the lab's developed negs, I can barely see the filament.
still, all details in the exposed frames are perfect.

 

[charjohncarter]

My experience is that if you don't develop long enough with HC-110 you will get lowered tonality (whatever tonality is), but that is probably true with all developers (at least for me as I hardly ever shoot at true box speed). But I use American dilution H, 11.5 minutes, 30 seconds initial agitation, 3 inversions each minute, 68 degrees F (20 degrees C), and I shoot at 250 EI.

In dilution H.

 

[David William White]

thanks,
I did. They wouldn't tell me. They regard that as a "professional secret"

what? They told you they use hc-110, but won't tell you for how long?

My quick test method is to put a black piece of negative (the tail or head of the roll) against a lamp and clearly see only the filament and the contour of the glass.
With the lab's developed negs, I can barely see the filament.
still, all details in the exposed frames are perfect.

what?

 

[dfoo]

What what? He's checking the fully developed density of the negative...

 

[Chris101]

I rarely have thin negatives with HC110! More often, just the opposite, and I find that I need to pull slightly to keep my highlights down. I noticed you say that you are starting with the European Concentrate. This is a one-third third strength dilution of the syrup we get in America. So to make dilution B, you need to dilute 100mL of the concentrate to 1 liter.

I'm sure this is what you are doing, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to spell it out.

 

[DGA]

what? They told you they use hc-110, but won't tell you for how long?

Cross my heart, that's what they said.

And regarding the other "what?"
How do you quickly see if your development went well? (without a densitometer, please)?

 

[DGA]

I rarely have thin negatives with HC110! More often, just the opposite, and I find that I need to pull slightly to keep my highlights down. I noticed you say that you are starting with the European Concentrate. This is a one-third third strength dilution of the syrup we get in America. So to make dilution B, you need to dilute 100mL of the concentrate to 1 liter.

I'm sure this is what you are doing, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to spell it out.

You are right, EURO HC-110 dilution B is 1:9 instead of 1:31 in the original (American) version. Still, it is the same chemical.

Chris, do you soup 400TX with it?