5000ED + Rodinal = fail

[flip]

I recently submitted my Nikon scanner for service in Japan due to difficulty using the SA-21 to scan certain rolls. I had a suspicion about what was at the root, but I felt it best to go through the hoops - after all getting a scanner cleaned is never a bad thing.

The results are in. HP5 with fuji developer OK. With Rodinal gets spat out.
efke 25 with rodinal spat out.

Basically, films developed with rodinal require the use of the clamshell holder to scan in sheets of 6. This was confirmed with Nikon staff at the Osaka HQ using their in-house 5000ED. I am experimenting with the area along the perforations using ink, etc, to see if there is any way to fool the scanner, but no luck yet. Will post if I learn something.

Bizarre. Pyro OK. everything else OK. hrmmm.

 

[Jockos]

Does it get spat out instantly? Maybe you could draw a think line with a permanent marker at the edge of the strip which go into the scanner first, so it has a better chance of detecting?

 

[flip]

It sucks it in a tad, waits for the scan instruction, draws it in a bit more, and then spits it out. Blacking the front edge and the sides has no impact that I have seen. A bit disappointing for someone who settled on Rodinal. I will have to continue to experiment with Fuji. I think I once got it to scan 400 with Rodinal, which would dispute the idea that Rodinal is an certain cause of failure. Still, it seems correlated. Could be residual silver distribution from stand development - which I don't think I did with the fuji. As I said, same results with the scanner at the Nikon HQ.

 

[maddoc]

The same problem also appeared before the scanner went to Nikon for service ? Do you warm up the scanner for at least 10 minutes before using it ?

 

[aldobonnard]

Flip, thanks for the info.
I will check that on my 5000ED and possibly let you know.

 

[flip]

I will try the warm up presently... back in 10.

 

[flip]

Interesting.

let me start by saving that I use Vuescan at home. Tests at Nikon were with Nikonscan, naturally.

The 10 minutes warm up did not seem to impact the situation. However, deselecting frame alignment resulted in normal scanning of frame 1 on the end of the roll which I had colored with a marker. Then, it gets spit out. As soon as the film goes in enough to consider frame two, it goes back to its old tricks.

When I rechecked the box, I get rejected immediately - either end of the roll.

Well... hrmmm.... let's do some more coloring on down through frame 2....
And do a batch list starting from 2...
No go... blinking lights and all. Scanner gets hung and requires power down.

FWIW/ I bought *another* SA-21 during this process, to see if it would help track down the issue and had the same results. So, this has been replicated on two scanners and 3 feeders.


Maddoc, this problem was precisely why I sent the scanner in for service.

 

[sevo]

Strange. The most plausible reason would be that Rodinal (at least with these films and/or your fixing/washing procedure) leaves a IR blocking stain, and the scanner uses the IR channel to position in black and white mode. But he'd have to use the visual channels to position colour film - if I should be right, it will work when scanning the same negatives as colour negative.

 

[flip]

I recall having the same problem in color mode, but will try again now...

A slightly different failure on trial one. Advances to frame two and spits out. Flashy lights.

Restart app and scanner...

A bit more time to warm up....

Scanning frame 1 OK....

Gets to frame 2. Spits out.

Man, I wish frame 1 (36?) wasn't such an end-of-the-roll shot. :-D

 

[flip]

I colored the edge of the other end of the roll and frame 1 is scanning...
Offset is weird from next scanned frame (like 1/3 into frame 2) but it's continuing....
And it stops after the second scanned frame.

 

[cabbiinc]

http://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/html/vuesc28.htm#inputframealignment
Input | Frame alignment

This option is only displayed when using a Nikon LS-40, LS-50, LS-4000 or LS-5000 with the strip film adapter. It causes VueScan to align the start of the frames by scanning the area between the first and second frames on the strip and then finding the initial 2 mm of clear leader. By default, this option is turned on.

This indicates that the scanner is using the area between the frames for alignment. I'm curious as to the rest of your process with Rodinal. What do you use to Fix?

 

[flip]

This indicates that the scanner is using the area between the frames for alignment. I'm curious as to the rest of your process with Rodinal. What do you use to Fix?

For the failed rolls, the process was
rodinal 1:100 stand
water only stopbath
Chugai Myfixer (Yodobashi Camera standard product)
Illford Hardener for the Efke 25 but not the HP5


I reviewed my notes and can now say with confidence that Fuji 400 and 1600 rolls with rodinal (non-stand), water bath, and chugai myfixer were fine.

I do not have non-rodinal experiences with efke 25; only with HP5. HP5 with fuji super prodol, pyro, etc was fine.

 

[ferider]

Strange. Almost all my rolls are developed in Rodinal and scanned with 5000ED and roll feeder. I also use different holders occasionally.

All kinds of different film. Neopan, APX, Tmax, etc. Never used Efke 25 or HP5, however.

Using Vuescan.

Mostly 1:100 stand or semi-stand.

Only difference from you is I use Ilford Rapidfixer.

Never had any Rodinal-related scanning problem.

Roland.

 

[rodinal]

Weird. Rodinal is my standard developer, my scanner is the same 5000ED w/standard filmstrip feeder, and also use Vuescan only. No problems here.

Although, I never develop HP-5+ in Rodinal (don't like the results), for this specific film I prefer HC-110, everything else gets Rodinal.

Another difference, my standard dilution is 1:50 and normal agitation procedures. Fixer is Ilford Rapid.

Difficult to believe these differences matter, but this is a very strange (and interesting) problem. Good luck !

MP

 

[maddoc]

One more idea, the Coolscan4000ED (don`t know about the 5000ED), continuously powers the IR LEDs on, when the main power switch is on, even when not scanning. These LEDs are used to "see" the sprocket holes and have a limited lifetime. If they start fading, the scanner is no longer able to "see" the frame separation correctly. From memory, RFF member Michael "sanmich" mentioned a similar problem some time ago in this thread There is also the link to to a blog, where somebody described the film loading problems with his SA-21 and how to repair it.

 

[flip]

Gabor,

When I brought the scanner to Nikon, I proposed to them that IR sensors may be the issue. I included problem rolls and OK rolls with the scanner. Although their service only went so far as cleaning we did replicate the problem in the lobby of the HQ, bringing problem replicability to 3 situations:
Nikon's SA-21 and 5000
My SA-21 and 5000
My 2nd SA-21 and the same 5000

It is certainly possible that the forces of nature are conspiring to kill all the SA-21s, but it looks unlikely. In any case, I don't have confidence with the sort of delicate soldering required to work over the SA-21 and find out if it makes a difference! 8^o

Ferider,

I will try to hunt down Rapidfixer to see if that will impact on the situation. I will also try non-stand with Efke25 next time. It's bound to be a slow process, but hey - I shoot film. I'm patient by nature. I expect to dev some rolls of efke after sakura.

Rodinal,

As for the HP5 with Rodinal - also not my thing. I don't plan to go there again.

 

[flip]

Thanks! I greatly appreciate your help in diagnosing the root of the problem!

 

[ChrisN]

I've had this problem with a Coolscan V, but only with one particular film (irrespective of developer). Try putting the film in upside down (emulsion side up). If it works you can always correct the rotation in post.

 

[flip]

I've had this problem with a Coolscan V, but only with one particular film (irrespective of developer). Try putting the film in upside down (emulsion side up). If it works you can always correct the rotation in post.

After a long warmup, i tried this. Results as before.

 

[maddoc]

You have also tried loading the film opposite direction, last frame first, I assume ? It sometimes helps also but no idea why ..