50mm ASPH Summilux Problem

[x-ray]

Interesting thing happened the other day. I recently started shooting Neopan 400 in 35mm and love the film. I as on a shoot this week and shot a couple of rolls through one of my MP's. I processed one roll that evening along with some 120 and discovered vertical bands in the film. Looking at the frame as a horizontal the bands were about 2mm's wide and ran the short dimension fo the film. Every frame didn't have it and they were in different places in each frame that had them. After the 13th frame there were no more untill I reached the end fo the roll. It appeared as if I was shooting at 1/500 and someone fired a strobe during my exposure. The band was higher density than the rest of the frame with distinct edges. The strange thing was I was the only person shooting and the exposures were 1/30-1/60 which ment the shutter as totally open or near so for each exposure. I also noticed the band started at the bottom of the frame and didn't extend all the was through the frame. Some of the bands were in the center of the frame and some were nearer the edge. Nothing extended into the sprocket area. The film was loaded in a dim lit area and unloaded in the same. I had the problem with a variety of lenses, 21mm Elmarit, 75 Summilux and 90 asph apo Summicron. I was concerned my shutter was having a problem so I did a test roll under the same conditions. I shot the test with my 50 asph summilux that I rarely use. I noticed outside that the infinity alignment was off and blamed it on the camera. I checked the body with another couple of lenses and the focus was OK with them. I took the asph summilux and checked it on a couple of other M's and it was off just like the first body. I then processed the second test roll shot at 1.4 and the 50 and found it to be extremely soft in focus but absolutely no signs of banding. I shot another roll and found the same thing and no banding.

Now I feel confident the body is fine but the asph summilux is out of whack. I understand it's a fairly complex lens with the cams and floating element so things could drift. Has anyone else seen this problem with their 50 asph and have any of you had problems with Neopan?

 

[sepiareverb]

I assume these bands are just in the image area from your post.

This is a new one for me- with a fast shutter speed I'd say it was stalling during exposure, but this seems not to be the case. If the problem occurred with more than one lens then it would point me towards the body.

As to the film being the problem- I had a student last semester with some Tri-X that had strange spots on it- could only be traced to the film after trying several tests, so don't rule out some manufacturing defect right off. SImplest test of film would be to run some other film in the same can.

I'm curious too- I'll be watching for what the rest of you have to say

 

[x-ray]

They are only in the image area and don't extend from top to bottom of the frame. They seem to in the bottom 2/3 of the frame. I ran 1 roll of 120 and andother roll of 35m with the problem roll and had no problem with either of them. The stripe is too defined for fog and this roll was on the bottom. If it was bromide drag it would be on all frames and not well defined.

I first thought it was a shutter problem but now i don't think so. I've seen a lot of problems over the years but never seen this. Other rolls from the batch and short through this body haven't shown any problems.

 

[mr_phillip]

Could you post the photos for folks to have a look at? It's certainly not a common issue whatever it is.

 

[x-ray]

I'll scan a couple and post in the morning.

 

[sepiareverb]

They are only in the image area and don't extend from top to bottom of the frame. They seem to in the bottom 2/3 of the frame.

This sounds possibly like something I had with a Contax G2- but these were diagonal lines at maybe 20° and 1/3 of the height of the frame. Erratic like yours. Camera was repaired in warranty but Kyocera repair in NJ never told me what was fixed. I suspected a shutter blade crack or bend, though I didn't see one. Your camera is an M though- shutter light leaks are pretty well documented

I ran 1 roll of 120 and andother roll of 35m with the problem roll and had no problem with either of them. The stripe is too defined for fog and this roll was on the bottom. If it was bromide drag it would be on all frames and not well defined.

Your process seems to rule out any development as possible cause- I've had weird fog on the top roll using metal reels/plastic lid when the lid had a crack in it- but fog certainly never reached the bottom of the tank.

I first thought it was a shutter problem but now i don't think so. I've seen a lot of problems over the years but never seen this. Other rolls from the batch and short through this body haven't shown any problems.

Did you shoot with another body in this same location/situation? That might help pin down a reason/cause.

I am still leaning towards a manufacturing problem or possibly a bad cassette? One might think of bad seals on a body with an opening back, but again not with an M.

 

[dreamsandart]

Camera - Not an intermittent light leak, or some reflection in the camera housing? I'd heard of issues with the mount of the Summilux ASPH, one of the reasons some folks said to buy one new so warranty covers any problems. Yes, it is a more complex mount and with the quality control issues Leica seems to have (the Tri-Elmar and its floating elements has also had a few problems) and your professional use something could have gotten misaligned. If you see a problem there probably is and needs service.

 

[x-ray]

The other MP was loaded with 100 and shot outside so that's no help. I thought about internal reflections but I've had that and this is too defined to that.

Regarding the lens, I emailed DAG and Don said he would check it. I don't know the construction of the lens but suspect something has broken or slipped. Minimum focus at 1.4 the image looks like mush. The lens goes out fedex in the morning.

I appreciat all your thoughts.

 

[sepiareverb]

If you can get a chance to scan a peek at a frame or two would be of interest. These kind of problems pop up in every Photo 1 class- the more I learn the faster I can get someone back on track.

Good Luck with Don.

 

[x-ray]

Sample frame

Sample frame

Here's a sample frame. You'll see a band running through the mans mouth from right to left but doesn't extend the width of the frame. Most of the frames were in the first half of the roll and the band ran through different parts of the image but most often in the middle like this. In no case did it extend through the entire frame and was always this width. Some frames were shot with a 21 Elmarit, some with a 75 summilux and this with a 90 apo asph. Some frames were framed vertical and some horizontal. It also happened when I shot different directions. There seems to be no pattern to how or when it happened. Rolls before and after have had no lines.

Other than a film problem I can't believe it would be the camera. Exposures were 1/30 to 1/60 so the shutter would be totally open during the 1/30 and almost totally open during the 1/60 exposures. To me it reminded me of a frame where I would be shooting at 1/250 and someone fire a strobe at the moment I fired my exposure but that wasn't the case here.

Any ideas?

 

[Magus]

Post deleted by posters request

 

[x-ray]

The 50 summilux is going to DAG today. I suspect a broken part internally or something has slipped. This is my 4th Leica lens in recent time that has had focusing issues. In the other three it was mechanical problems in the helix. These were all lenses from the 80's to current glass. Seems like a high percentage of problems and is a bit disappointing regarding leica construction. My old lenses, pre 1970's , were never an issue and never gave any problems but the more recent have been a disaster mechanically.

As to the film, I feel it must be a film issue and not related to the camera. I'm going to shoot a few more test rolls this week before doing a shoot this weekend.

 

[Magus]

Post deleted by posters request

 

[x-ray]

I agree about Jags, that's why I bought a Prosche!

I bought the asph summilux used in mint condition from Tamarkin almost 2 years ago. Never a problem untill now.

Frustration isn't the word i used but it did begin with an F.

 

[Magus]

Post deleted by posters request

 

[x-ray]

I remember the 2002 very well. A real dream of a car. I had a friend that had one and I don't know which I wnated more her or the car. I had 3 M's and 7 lenses at the time but drove a 1965 Plymouth. The old Plymouth was a dependable car and the kit was complete so I guess that left only one thing I needed.

My X took the Porsche a few years ago as part of the divorce but there's a new one in the not too distant future. I've got a new sleek and beautiful wife now so the car is near.

Sent the 50 asph off to DAG fedex and await the diagnosis.

 

[sepiareverb]

Looking at that scan I'm thinking manufacturing problem with the film. Always frustrating when two things combine into one 'problem'. I would try shooting a roll of a grey card from the same emulsion batch- but perhaps first contact Fuji and ask if they've heard from more folks with this banding. Could be the first or last roll spooled from a big reel- I had some Oriental paper that had strange paper weight variations- they said it came off the end of the roll that way every once in a while.

I never leaned toward the BMW's nor Jaguars (except for guitars, another thread perhaps?)

 

[x-ray]

I shot a couple of other rolls in the same brick and didn't see any problems. My Fuji rep just retired a month ago so I'll give the main office in Edison a call tomorrow. Great thought. My guess is it's a fluke in the film.

I had a 500ft roll of 11 inch Dupont paper with a roach (bug) pressed in the emulsion and had the wrong emulsion spooled with the wrong paper backing in 120 once. Also had 2 cases of Kodak E6 8x10 with no yellow layer coated. Talk about strange looking images! Things happen once in a while and the more you shoot the more likely these things will surface eventually. When you think you've seen everything something like this happens.

 

[sepiareverb]

If I can track down that student next semester I'll try to post a scan of that Tri-X craziest thing I've ever seen on films- almost heavily reticulated dots, but big. Ha managed to make one of the images work very well, but most were ruined. Last I heard he was going to try and contact Kodak to get their take on it. This was two weeks before classes ended, so I haven't gotten to hear what happened.

 

[x-ray]

Unlike the old days when everyone had reps tha actually called on us photogs it's now almost impossible to get a response on aything even if you want to buy something. I was looking at a fuji Finescan 5000 scanner two years ago and considering a Creo / Scitex Kodak IQ Smart scanner. These scanners are $25,000-30,000 and called Kodak for information. I never could reach the Kodak guys and left a few voice mails and emails. The fuji rep was there to help and sold me a Finescan 5000. Almost exactly a year later I got a call from Kodak asking if they could ship me a scanner for a month or so to demo. Sorry Kodak you're too late. Times are different today and my Fuji rep of 25+ years has just taken an early retirement. For years the Kodak regional rep stopped by the studio every two weeks and even the head of commercial products would call on me when he was in town. Now we have no Fuji or Kodak rep and we're left out here to deal with our problems ourselves. I seriously don't think I we'll ever get an answer.