Bill Pierce
Well-known
With more and more economies on the downside, jobs disappearing or being downsized and retirement savings reduced by a fallen stock market, will a conspicuous consumption item like the M8 survive? What do you think?
And, during these times, will any company, say Cosina, risk introducing a more economical rangefinder as a working tool? What do you think?
Could it be the economy, not the competition from other cameras, that is the next big hurdle for Leitz?
And, during these times, will any company, say Cosina, risk introducing a more economical rangefinder as a working tool? What do you think?
Could it be the economy, not the competition from other cameras, that is the next big hurdle for Leitz?
back alley
IMAGES
the m8 has a small target audience to begin with and i doubt that the impact on them will deter a small purchase like the m8. in fact, sales might go up as the leica is way cheaper than a new benz.
cosina already produces economical rfs.
i think the bulk of rf sales comes from within the used market so the economy might not be a strong deterrent.
joe
cosina already produces economical rfs.
i think the bulk of rf sales comes from within the used market so the economy might not be a strong deterrent.
joe
MartinP
Veteran
The future of digital Leicas could depend more on how many working pros and hire shops move to the S2.
In the current climate I suppose not many will dump their Mamiya or Hasselblad digitals, but there are always new camera bodies required by someone(?).
Having written that, I see that perhaps for film rangefinders there are already enough M's to go round (meaning I never bought a new one), so digital is different due to the relatively immature technology. And that same tech problem probably means there won't be a new version of the Epson anytime soon, whatever name is on the front
In the current climate I suppose not many will dump their Mamiya or Hasselblad digitals, but there are always new camera bodies required by someone(?).
Having written that, I see that perhaps for film rangefinders there are already enough M's to go round (meaning I never bought a new one), so digital is different due to the relatively immature technology. And that same tech problem probably means there won't be a new version of the Epson anytime soon, whatever name is on the front
Al Kaplan
Veteran
Bill, I don't think that the folks buying Leicas brand new these days are truely concerned about little sums of money like $10,000, or think about how much money they'll "save by going digital". Cosina's price point is still easily within range of anybody who can put off buying a new car until next year. And YES, the market is there for a "working tool". A full frame sensor Cosina rangefinder would still find a market with both working pros and amatures who DO think about all the money they'll save by going digital.
It's mostly the middle income fondlers who'll be left out in the cold.
It's mostly the middle income fondlers who'll be left out in the cold.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
I don't think this will be a problem for "the M8", because (#1), the target market is people who can afford it. People who can afford it, more often than not, come from a different segment of the population, than, say, the artist.
If you were to ask the question about, I don't know...a Big Mac vs. Beluga caviar, and if Beluga caviar were a food staple in the majority of homes, then I'd say, yes, for sure, Beluga caviar is bound to die a swift death, if its target market were Joe The Plumber, Joe Six-Pack, and Joe "Who-Cares!" Doe.
bmattock
Veteran
I heard a story on NPR this morning about Netflix. They are doing OK, such that others are watching them and wondering if they are benefiting from a phenomena whose name I missed - but something to do with substitution. As the economy worsens, people are trading a night out at the movies for a Netflix subscription.
For those who want a quality rangefinder, I could see Cosina fitting into the niche formerly occupied by Leica.
On the other hand, I suspect that Leica occupies a niche less for what it is (a camera) and more for who they are (Leica). People who want a Leica want a Leica.
I don't know how much Leica will be hurt by a recession. Most of their customers, I suspect, are recession-proof. No proof of that, just a guess. I'd love to a demographic study on Leica customers.
For those who want a quality rangefinder, I could see Cosina fitting into the niche formerly occupied by Leica.
On the other hand, I suspect that Leica occupies a niche less for what it is (a camera) and more for who they are (Leica). People who want a Leica want a Leica.
I don't know how much Leica will be hurt by a recession. Most of their customers, I suspect, are recession-proof. No proof of that, just a guess. I'd love to a demographic study on Leica customers.
ferider
Veteran
Everybody will suffer, and, as a (de facto) private company, it will depend mostly on how much cash Leica/Kaufmann have. Probably better positioned/protected than most public companies.
The Pro (S2 and maybe some M8) segment will get less (for example wedding) contracts. "Middle income fondlers" (whatever that means) will buy less toys - and less art of course, impacting the pro market.
Let's see if any of us will get tax refunds.
It's a good time to buy used. Prices will keep going down.
Roland.
The Pro (S2 and maybe some M8) segment will get less (for example wedding) contracts. "Middle income fondlers" (whatever that means) will buy less toys - and less art of course, impacting the pro market.
Let's see if any of us will get tax refunds.
It's a good time to buy used. Prices will keep going down.
Roland.
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dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
I think Gabriel took the words (and caviar) right out of my mouth - his statements ring true to me..
Dave
Dave
tbm
Established
I own nearly every Leica reflex lens released below 400mm and if the forthcoming Leica Digital R10 is priced below the horribly expensive M8 I will pull dollars from my savings and buy the R10. On the other hand, I will never buy a digital M because I prefer the extra reach of R lenses to the limitation of 135mm on the M side.
marke
Well-known
Hey, I resemble that!
Actually, I'm a recovering middle-aged, middle income fondler myself. And it's all that fondling between shutter snaps that will eventually get my shiny MP all brassed up! So in the end, what matters most is not whether or not you are a fondler. What matters most is what you are doing while you're fondling.
ferider
Veteran
Was just quoting post #4, Mark .... The point being it's the fondlers who buy some of the art, too
marke
Well-known
Was just quoting post #4, Mark .... The point being it's the fondlers who buy some of the art, too
I know. I was just messin' with Al.
I know how he feels about Ms that sit around all day on pretty velvet pillows, while others are out there on the streets working their little baseplates off.Rui Morais de Sousa
Established
$$$$$$
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Do you remember those metal cans where Tri-X buck film used to come, some 30 years ago? Each night, when I came back from my cab driving (in Heidelberg, Germany), I would try to save some change, sometimes even a bill or two (if it had been a good night...), and keep it in those film cans. In a couple of months, I could maybe have the can full and be able to buy one more Summicron or that long-dreamed M2 (used, of course!). That's how I started buying my Leitz equipment: driving cabs at night.
Than one day I had a chance and I fullfilled my dream: I became a pro! For a couple of years it did work fine, I even suffered from too much work. It was not unusual to make two or three months non-stop, without a single Sunday. So I almost stoped shooting Leicas, as I earned my bucks with some other larger stuff.
Around 2000 things started slowing down... When I heard of the new Cosina/Voigtländers I couldn't avoid thinking that if I would have to start new again, I would have to content myself with it. After all they "look" like nice cameras (I never used one, so I can't judge for myself, but I believe), and they are rangefinders, right?
Well, all these years later and with all this economic recession, my dream (the one of becoming a pro) is getting a nightmare, and I start thinking that I may need to switch brands soon... No, I will not buy Voigtländer! I will be happy if I can afford a Kiev or Zorki... After all, they are also rangefinders, or?
And my Leicas always were a poor man's Leicas, right?
Do cab drivers deserve Leicas?
Rui
P.S.: I apologize if I sound a little bitter. I am bitter!
(And you can bet that I will do everything to keep them!...)
$$$$$$
Do you remember those metal cans where Tri-X buck film used to come, some 30 years ago? Each night, when I came back from my cab driving (in Heidelberg, Germany), I would try to save some change, sometimes even a bill or two (if it had been a good night...), and keep it in those film cans. In a couple of months, I could maybe have the can full and be able to buy one more Summicron or that long-dreamed M2 (used, of course!). That's how I started buying my Leitz equipment: driving cabs at night.
Than one day I had a chance and I fullfilled my dream: I became a pro! For a couple of years it did work fine, I even suffered from too much work. It was not unusual to make two or three months non-stop, without a single Sunday. So I almost stoped shooting Leicas, as I earned my bucks with some other larger stuff.
Around 2000 things started slowing down... When I heard of the new Cosina/Voigtländers I couldn't avoid thinking that if I would have to start new again, I would have to content myself with it. After all they "look" like nice cameras (I never used one, so I can't judge for myself, but I believe), and they are rangefinders, right?
Well, all these years later and with all this economic recession, my dream (the one of becoming a pro) is getting a nightmare, and I start thinking that I may need to switch brands soon... No, I will not buy Voigtländer! I will be happy if I can afford a Kiev or Zorki... After all, they are also rangefinders, or?
And my Leicas always were a poor man's Leicas, right?
Do cab drivers deserve Leicas?
Rui
P.S.: I apologize if I sound a little bitter. I am bitter!
(And you can bet that I will do everything to keep them!...
)
alan davus
Well-known
I can't help but think that Leica sales will be affected by the economic downturn. It's not just working class people who are sufferring. Many of those in the upmarket part of town have lost a fortune as their share portfolios have nose dived in value (I know plenty). In times like these people just shut up shop and stop spending and $6000 hobbyist cameras disappear from the "must have" list real quickly. I won't be buying Leica or otherwise this year.
Al Kaplan
Veteran
Unless you really think that we're headed for a 1930's style lingering depression this is probably a good time to be buying. When people do start buying again prices will rebound.
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Will it linger is the trillion dollar, adjusted for inflation, question. I hope it doesn't but people are cautious and this is going to be a problem for all sellers short or long term whichever way this down turn shakes out.
Bob
Harry Lime
Practitioner
I think Leica's problems are two fold and they started well before the economic troubles hit.
First off the camera has always been overpriced and the recent increases are plain ridiculous. Obviously anyone buying an M8 these days is quite well off. $6500 for the body and perhaps several thoudsand more for a lens is not something your average enthusiast is just going to plunk down. There are lot of people out there that would like an M8.x, but 9 out 10 simply can't afford it. I know at least 4 people who would buy one in a heartbeat, if it was a lot cheaper.
The second problem is the price / performance ratio. Regardless of the fact that the M8 is the only digital rangefinder on the market, it is simply not worth $6500. If it was $2999 new I would say Leica had a leg to stand on, but it's not. If it was $6500 and delivered performance on the level of a Nikon D3x or 5D-II, it would still be pushing the limits. $10,000 for an M8 and 2/28 Cron ASPH is preposterous. At that price you're almost at the entry point of medium format. The camera is also +2 years old and except for sharpness, something like a $1400 D300 will eat it for breakfast. High ISO performance is pretty far behind. And lets not get started on the reliability issues, quirks (IR) and lack of standard features for a professional camera (weathersealing).
So, yes, Leica had a lot of problems to begin with and the economy tanking on an epic scale is not helping either.
I've always seen the M8 as a stopgap measure that Leica had to rush out the door at any cost; at a point in time when they were days away from going out of business. It's the M4-2 of our age. I expect the M9 to be a very different beast, unless management completely screws things up.
First off the camera has always been overpriced and the recent increases are plain ridiculous. Obviously anyone buying an M8 these days is quite well off. $6500 for the body and perhaps several thoudsand more for a lens is not something your average enthusiast is just going to plunk down. There are lot of people out there that would like an M8.x, but 9 out 10 simply can't afford it. I know at least 4 people who would buy one in a heartbeat, if it was a lot cheaper.
The second problem is the price / performance ratio. Regardless of the fact that the M8 is the only digital rangefinder on the market, it is simply not worth $6500. If it was $2999 new I would say Leica had a leg to stand on, but it's not. If it was $6500 and delivered performance on the level of a Nikon D3x or 5D-II, it would still be pushing the limits. $10,000 for an M8 and 2/28 Cron ASPH is preposterous. At that price you're almost at the entry point of medium format. The camera is also +2 years old and except for sharpness, something like a $1400 D300 will eat it for breakfast. High ISO performance is pretty far behind. And lets not get started on the reliability issues, quirks (IR) and lack of standard features for a professional camera (weathersealing).
So, yes, Leica had a lot of problems to begin with and the economy tanking on an epic scale is not helping either.
I've always seen the M8 as a stopgap measure that Leica had to rush out the door at any cost; at a point in time when they were days away from going out of business. It's the M4-2 of our age. I expect the M9 to be a very different beast, unless management completely screws things up.
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noimmunity
scratch my niche
I wouldn't be surprised if aspects of the economy slow down things--especially the release of new cameras and lenses from Japan.
I still find it hard to believe that nobody's been seriously biting on any of the lenses I have for sale.
I still find it hard to believe that nobody's been seriously biting on any of the lenses I have for sale.
Rui Morais de Sousa
Established
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I fully agree with you Harry Lime.
Besides, who really needs or can afford the new 1.4 wonders?
If you think about the enormous amount of money you need, for ex., to buy a new M8+1.4/21mm, it is very hard to believe that any pro on his mind would be interested on the purchase...
Maybe a very, very stellar one, but such one would get it eventually as a gift. For some years now, Leica has been distancing itself from working professionals. The global crisis won't help for sure.
Rui
$$$$$$
I fully agree with you Harry Lime.
Besides, who really needs or can afford the new 1.4 wonders?
If you think about the enormous amount of money you need, for ex., to buy a new M8+1.4/21mm, it is very hard to believe that any pro on his mind would be interested on the purchase...
Maybe a very, very stellar one, but such one would get it eventually as a gift. For some years now, Leica has been distancing itself from working professionals. The global crisis won't help for sure.
Rui
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
Businesses will maintain course during these troubled times and jettison under-performing products. Introducing cost saving products is a good way to go IMHO. However, there are no substitutes for certain branded products, such as Leica. For instance, Timex may introduce a super-duper quartz watch but I would still go for the Rolex.
The M8? Dont have enough hard data to make a guesstimate. I don't see a new Cosina RF being introduced. The Ikon is already avail as a low cost model as are the Bessas.
Often, financially troubled companies do not survive serious economic downturns. I would not be surprised if Leica were to shut its doors, reconfigure and spin off its lens line. Far more powerful companies have tapped out during the past year. I hope Leica survives, but it will have to reinvent itself.
The M8? Dont have enough hard data to make a guesstimate. I don't see a new Cosina RF being introduced. The Ikon is already avail as a low cost model as are the Bessas.
Often, financially troubled companies do not survive serious economic downturns. I would not be surprised if Leica were to shut its doors, reconfigure and spin off its lens line. Far more powerful companies have tapped out during the past year. I hope Leica survives, but it will have to reinvent itself.