A beginer's trilema - Kiev, FED or a Zorki

[komunjist]

Hi everyone!

I have recently gotten into film photography. I have an SLR - Praktica super TL, but I want to try out rangefinders. Since I am completely new to this I need some help 😀 I like mechanical caneras as well as watches, 'cause I don't like to depend on batteries and electronics, that is why i want to acquire a soviet camera.
I have spent all night going through the Kievs, Zorkies and FEDs, and now I am thinking about these three: Kiev4a, Zorki 4, and a FED 2, but I cannot settle.
I would like to buy a rangefinder because I am interested in street photography. Also I would like my camera to be reliable, although I know that the Soviet cameras have a lottery reputation 😀

 

[Moto-Uno]

So why not something Japanese? Their rangefinders are leap years past the commie cameras, and you can spend time taking pictures instead of asking what this or that problem is. And just because I have a bit of Scottish in me, they tend to be cheap!

Peter

 

[TerryMcC]

Have a look at what Oleg at http://www.okvintagecamera.com/about.html has on offer. He seems to have a good reputation. I love my Zorki 1. It works well and takes a good pic. My Kiev 4a however was another can of worms, ended up giving it away.

 

[ForestCap]

Like any camera, Japanese or German ones, those three cameras you listed can be very reliable if they are properly used by previous owners and recently serviced. So find a good sample then you can expect them to click on for a couple of more decades.

I would recommend some models that I've had best experience with:
A pre-1970 Kiev-4a.
A Zorki-1c or 1d,
A Zorki-6

 

[wolves3012]

There's a sticky I wrote, some years ago, on the pros and cons of the more popular models. It's at the top of this sub-forum.

To summarise, you need to decide which features are important to you. The Kiev has, for some people, awkward handling. The FED 2 has no slow speeds (i.e.under 1/30th). The Zorki doesn't have the most accurate finder. However, any of the three can give you great results - IF it's in good condition and serviced!

 

[komunjist]

Thank you all for answering.
I did not consider german ones, are there any cheap ones you would recomend?
I was going to do some street photography so I don't really need slower speeds.
The way I understand, and tell me if I got it wrong is that:
1. Kiev 4a, minus the awkward handling, is the best one but it is difficult to find one in good shape
2. FED 2 is simple but does what it can nicely
3. Zorki 4 has problems with slow speeds and isn't so reliable overall

 

[komunjist]

Like any camera, Japanese or German ones, those three cameras you listed can be very reliable if they are properly used by previous owners and recently serviced. So find a good sample then you can expect them to click on for a couple of more decades.

I would recommend some models that I've had best experience with:
A pre-1970 Kiev-4a.
A Zorki-1c 1d,
A Zorki-6

I got an impression that Zorki 6 is really bad looking through reviews. It's interesting that you have a different experience. It fits my criterium - simpleness, but I thought that it is really bad...
Also, would you put Zorki 1c or 1d before FED 2, and why?

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

Looking at your list I would go for the FED 2 with a Jupiter-8 or Industar 61 (L/D). They handle well, if you like knobs to wind on, and have had a lot of thought go into the design. Also, you can get an instruction manual in English easily.

If you want a slightly more conventional camera (or less oddball) then look at the Zorki 6 for its lever wind, hinged back, fixed take-up spool and so on.

As others have said, it all depends on what the previous owners have done, or not done, to them. Experience tells me that buying a good looking one, putting a film through it and then sending it to Oleg will get you something as good as any of the other posher makes.

By the way, do that to a FED 1 and you'll get as near as you can to the 1930's Leica experience as you can without spending hundreds more.

Anyway, I'll wish you luck with your choices.

Regards, David

 

[David Hughes]

Hmmm, talking of reviews, most of them are on the internet and are based on one second-hand camera bought from a stranger on an auction site. And the lies or otherwise told by the seller will influence the account.

You can read similar accounts of almost any make of camera from the highest to the lowest. Take my Leica M9 f'instance, although Leica did repair it for free (and the Digilux 2)...

And, judging by some of the questions people ask, most are sold without instructions and then screwed up by being used the wrong way. These are all elderly cameras and have their little foibles. Few know that you must not set the shutter speed before winding it on and cocking the mechanism, few know that you shouldn't go from 500 to B directly but should take the slow route and so on. And a lot of them expect a second-hand, 60 year old camera to behave like a brand new one because it cost as much...

Regards, David

 

[ForestCap]

]

I got an impression that Zorki 6 is really bad looking through reviews. It's interesting that you have a different experience. It fits my criterium - simpleness, but I thought that it is really bad...
Also, would you put Zorki 1c or 1d before FED 2, and why?

I'm not a repairman but I've successfully serviced several models at home. I shoot all my FSU RFs instead of just collecting them.

In my experience, FED-2 is the second most hyped FSU model on the Internet (with Zorki-4K being in the first place), and there are simply sooo many fed-2 that look good but are junks inside. I've had three and in the end I made one of them working.

Zorki-1 is a simple camera and a joy to use if you can get used to the bottom loading. It is so compact that it would be a camera staying in your bag or coat pocket all the time (with collapsible lens like Industar-22 or -50). That's why Leitz invented Leica. The separatde VF/RF is easier to use than I thought.

Being the end of the line model of KMZ's Zorki brand, Zorki-6 has a unique design: the shutter chamber is merged with the body chassis, so it doesn't have the four screws in the front face of the camera as you see on most other models. Fewer parts means fewer parts can go out of whack. Plus the Zorki-6 viewfinder is very well balanced: it has the brightness of Z-4, but the eye-point is much longer since the magnification is lower. I'm not an engineer but the parts inside Z-6 look more refined than the Fed-2 and -3.

 

[komunjist]

Hmmm, talking of reviews, most of them are on the internet and are based on one second-hand camera bought from a stranger on an auction site. And the lies or otherwise told by the seller will influence the account.

You can read similar accounts of almost any make of camera from the highest to the lowest. Take my Leica M9 f'instance, although Leica did repair it for free (and the Digilux 2)...

And, judging by some of the questions people ask, most are sold without instructions and then screwed up by being used the wrong way. These are all elderly cameras and have their little foibles. Few know that you must not set the shutter speed before winding it on and cocking the mechanism, few know that you shouldn't go from 500 to B directly but should take the slow route and so on. And a lot of them expect a second-hand, 60 year old camera to behave like a brand new one because it cost as much...

Regards, David

Thanks David! I'm now leaning towards FED 2! What do you think of the Industar 26 lense?

 

[komunjist]

I'm not a repairman but I've successfully serviced several models at home. I shoot all my FSU RFs instead of just collecting them.

In my experience, FED-2 is the second most hyped FSU model on the Internet (with Zorki-4K being in the first place), and there are simply sooo many fed-2 that look good but are junks inside. I've had three and in the end I made one of them working.

Zorki-1 is a simple camera and a joy to use if you can get used to the bottom loading. It is so compact that it would be a camera staying in your bag or coat pocket all the time (with collapsible lens like Industar-22 or -50). That's why Leitz invented Leica. The separatde VF/RF is easier to use than I thought.

Being the end of the line model of KMZ's Zorki brand, Zorki-6 has a unique design: the shutter chamber is merged with the body chassis, so it doesn't have the four screws in the front face of the camera as you see on most other models. Fewer parts means fewer parts can go out of whack. Plus the Zorki-6 viewfinder is very well balanced: it has the brightness of Z-4, but the eye-point is much longer since the magnification is lower. I'm not an engineer but the parts inside Z-6 look more refined than the Fed-2 and -3.

Thanks for the thorough answer! Unfortunately, here on the local photo market there are no Zorki 1s. There are a bunch of 4s, 6s, 3s, and Ss. But 1 seems to rare. Sadly, I cannot afford shipping so I have to satisfy myself with the offered.

 

[Spanik]

Only have a Zorki 4. My neighbour gave it to me after it spend years in his closet and was dragged all over the world and dropped a few times. Still works fine. I do like the viewfinder and its diopter correction. But the knob winder is a bit less fun. Otherwise a nice camera.

 

[wolves3012]

Thanks David! I'm now leaning towards FED 2! What do you think of the Industar 26 lense?

The I-26 is a sharp lens with good contrast, although the later I-61 is better still. Either of them is almost guaranteed to need a re-lube to be smooth, however. Tne russian grease is awful after a few years. I have numerous examples of the I-26 and I-61 and not one of them didn't need a clean and re-lube of the helicals. Fortunately, it's not difficult to do, with a little common sense and some jeweller's screwdrivers (and the instructions!).

There are also plenty of fans of the Jupiter 8, which is a faster lens if not quite as sharp at large apertures.

 

[wolves3012]

Thanks for the thorough answer! Unfortunately, here on the local photo market there are no Zorki 1s. There are a bunch of 4s, 6s, 3s, and Ss. But 1 seems to rare. Sadly, I cannot afford shipping so I have to satisfy myself with the offered.

The 'S' is close to a Zorki 1 but with a flash sync capability and not quite such nice looks.

Of those you list, the 6 is probably the best if you don't need slower speeds. The VF is excellent, it has lever wind and a hinged back for easy loading, plus a fixed film spool that can't get lost. It can often be found with a Jupiter 8 (f/2) but the alternative I-50 (f/3.5) is slower but very sharp.

By the way, it's not true that the Zorki 4's slow speeds are troublesome. Only poor operators and lack of servicing causes them to fail - most often by people not setting the speed after cocking the shutter only.

The Zorki 3, with a separate slow-speed dial like the Leica, is supposed to have a poor reputation for reliability. I have seen a few comments that this is undeserved though. I have a later 3M, with combined dial like the '4' and that is reliable.

 

[rbiemer]

Thanks for the thorough answer! Unfortunately, here on the local photo market there are no Zorki 1s. There are a bunch of 4s, 6s, 3s, and Ss. But 1 seems to rare. Sadly, I cannot afford shipping so I have to satisfy myself with the offered.

There is one big advantage with buying locally: you will be able to actually hold the camera and assess the condition before you spend any money.

I will repeat wolves3012 suggestion to read the thread he started about this.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43469 Very good information.

As far as which camera to start out with, my answer to that is a series of questions for you. Once you have a good idea of your answers, that will help you to decide amongst the cameras you have mentioned.

Do you wear eye glasses? If you do, that may affect how well you like or do not like any camera's view finder. Also, most of these cameras have a reputation for scratching eyeglass lenses.

Do you want strap lugs? If the camera you are thinking of does not have them, then you will need to use the leather case and the strap the case has. Nothing bad about doing that but these cases are as old as the cameras and I would pay close attention to the condition of the case.

Are you thinking of other lenses than the 50mm? The Soviets made lots of 35, 50, 85, and 135mm lenses in both the screw mount and the Kiev mount. There were also some other lenses made. 21 and 28mm lenses, but those seem to be harder to find. And the screw mount versions are not as scarce as the Kiev mount versions.

Some of the cameras have what I consider to be a full range of shutter speeds (B- 1 second through 1/1000 second) and some do not. Which speeds are available is different between camera models and you will decide what will suit you.

Some of the later cameras and lenses have the various markings on the camera screen printed instead of engraved and those markings can wear off over time.

One last thing I will suggest: look carefully at the screws on the cameras. Ideally, they will not be bent or damaged. I personally will pass on any camera where the screw heads are damaged. I take that as a clear sign that some one who didn't have the correct tool has tried to adjust or fix something and I would not trust that a person who does that has the knowledge to correctly adjust or fix anything. Having the right tools, sadly, is no guarantee that they will have the knowledge but damaged screw heads are, for me, a deal breaker.

Good luck!
And welcome to RFF.

Rob

 

[David Hughes]

Thanks David! I'm now leaning towards FED 2! What do you think of the Industar 26 lense?

Hi,

It's a lovely lenses. I bought two once for a pound... Anyway, I use it from time to time on the M9 but mostly it sits on the FED 2 and the Jupiter-2 on the Zorki-6.

A minor point, the J-8 turns round as you focus and so needs one of those nice Chinese lens hoods with the holes in for the RF and the I-61's (I hope) just move in and out without twisting so a good choice for them is the USSR made rectangular hood.

You'll find all of them, lenses and bodies, are OK but you have to have your eyes open when buying and ear-mark some cash for a trip to Oleg to get them in 100% condition. Oleg's magic is worth paying for, my early Zorkis and FEDs behave like my Leicas and feel like them too.

The problem with USSR made stuff is usually the previous owner, if they were looked after and treated as they should be (like all cameras) then they are great.

Rob's warning about straps and screw heads is another good point to remember. It hits the nail on the head, so to speak... And I hope that translates well for everyone;-)

The only other warning I'd offer is that you should not expect built in meters to work.

Regards, David

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Do you have your eyes checked? You will need really good eyes for FSU speed dial. It is getting much more difficult with my family FED-2 comparing to how easy it was thirty years ago. I26 has 180 focus throw, it is for slow street photography.
If you will buy FED-2 kit as is on eBay, you are looking at curtains with holes, dried lubricant in camera and lens. Zorki, Kiev same thing.
Do yourself big favour get Leica II-III series instead with fifty lens or something like LTM Color Skopar 21, 28 or 35 with corresponding viewfinder. You could get fully working Leica LTM, but it is next to impossible to get working FSU camera now just by buying it on eBay.
Or get still working Olympus XA. Or Canon LTM RF camera.
If for some reasons you need FSU buy it from specialized on-Line store. There is one in NY and maybe still one in Russia.

 

[tunalegs]

My personal experience is this: The Zorki 4 and Fed 3 are the "best" user cameras of the whole lot of soviet rangefinders.

Overall, I think the Fed 3 is maybe a slightly better machine than the Zorki 4, it's just that little bit smoother operating, better finished, and ergonomic. The Zorki 4 though has a larger, brighter viewfinder, and is usually easier to find. I prefer the older versions that have strap lugs.

I've also had a Zorki 4K but the lack of strap lugs and slightly less well made feel overall just sent me back to the regular 4.

I've tried a couple Kievs, and aside from being clumsy cameras, neither one works particularly well or feels particularly solid (heavy though! But heavy is not the same thing as feeling well made!).

Also tried a Fed 4 and 5b and thought they were perfectly awful.

Zorki 6 to me just felt like a less well made Fed 3.

 

[x-ray]

KoFe do you have any thoughts on Moskva cameras. Years ago I bought a model V, I think it was, but there was a problem with the lens. The RF was fine but the lens needed adjustment. I improved it but never got it working properly. Is there a good source for Moskva's?