A Comparison of Four 90mm Lenses

back alley said:
so much of this is truly personal.

some like that 'glow' but to me it looks like the contrast is off and that it lacks detail in the more shadowy areas.
the hex and rokkor, to me, have more detail and less glow but have a 'drama' that the other 2 lack.

joe
Click to expand...

good word choice. descriptive for sure.

.
 
I like these lens tests, and I appreciate the effort that has gone into this one. BUT: The idea of the blind tests is the best. The tester can know which is which, and take the pictures and post them, and ask for preferences on lenses 1,2,3, or 4, and avoid the bias that creeps, unintended, into all these discussions. Bias is the right word I think, but there is another issue, which is purchase and ownership justification. Isn't it really hard to say that you like the CV (I do, but then I have the Ultron 35) if you just bought the Leica? (I haven't and don't plan to.) Consider too, that for orchestra auditions, they now carpet the walk to the chair and put the musician behind a curtain, so the listeners are not affected by the appearance of the musician, and don't know the sex of the musician. Without that women were virtually excluded by bias. Now they judge based on actual music.
 
Ray: Thanks for your useful test. To complement your test results allow me to post a link to my earlier thread on comparing tele lenses. I think, only the Summicron is common in our tests.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26497


I had:


1. Summicron 90mm/2 (first version)
2. Canon 85mm/1.9
3. Canon 85mm/1.8 (Mark)
4. Nikkor 85mm/2 (Roland)
5. ZK 85/f2 (1950 "Zonnar Krasnogorski") in Cyrillic "3K 85/f2". (Roland)
6. Elmarit 90mm/2.8 (old design)
7. Steinheil 85mm/2.8
8. Nikkor 105mm/2.5 (Kiu)
9. Elmar (chrome, coated) 90mm/4
10. Elmar (black, coated, different aperture clicks from chrome) 90mm/4

The black Elmar needs shimming.



Raid
 
erichard44 said:
I like these lens tests, and I appreciate the effort that has gone into this one. BUT: The idea of the blind tests is the best. The tester can know which is which, and take the pictures and post them, and ask for preferences on lenses 1,2,3, or 4, and avoid the bias that creeps, unintended, into all these discussions. Bias is the right word I think, but there is another issue, which is purchase and ownership justification. Isn't it really hard to say that you like the CV (I do, but then I have the Ultron 35) if you just bought the Leica? (I haven't and don't plan to.) Consider too, that for orchestra auditions, they now carpet the walk to the chair and put the musician behind a curtain, so the listeners are not affected by the appearance of the musician, and don't know the sex of the musician. Without that women were virtually excluded by bias. Now they judge based on actual music.
Click to expand...


I agree with you regarding the blind testing. I am in the middle of a test of
50mm lenses, and I will include at least one portion where the images will not be linked to specific lenses.


Raid
 
back alley said:
i thik it's interesting that we are all looking at the same pics but coming to very different conclusions.

i like how the background looks and the contrast and shadow detail of the rokkor the best.
i am assuming the 90/4 elmar c would be much the same.

joe
Click to expand...

Joe: It could very well be that there is a bias towards certain lens brands.
Raid
 
RayPA said:
Hi Robert,

The process I used was to shoot with one lens after another, not to swap lenses for each f-stop. I also metered before each lens, and shot, using an incident meter. I shot in the following order Hex, Leica, CV, Rokkor. It was a partly cloudy day, and I did experience some change in light. I also didn't account for 1/2 stops, preferring to stick to the actual f-stops and deal with the variations (the camera was an MP). For instance, the CV was shot at 1/250 @ f3.5, followed by 1/125 @ f4. There are obviously variations in exposure, but I think the characteristics come across. Scientific? No way. Just a down and dirty comparison.

🙂
Click to expand...


Ray: I switch lens after lens [for 15 lenses] after each exposure. It is a pain in the butt. I do this for consistency in the exposure. Such "unscientific" comparisons become more and more useful when they are replicated.
Thanks for your efforts.


Raid


Raid
 
Sorry to burst this bubble but from the images shown you cannot possibly make a judgement. not only are they too small and low res (this is a computer screen at 72 dpi or so) but the use of TriX rather than a high resolution film also makes the results less possible to interpret. The lightness or darkness is almost certainly related to aperture accuracy and not relevant. The negs will tell you what information is there and how it could be printed.

Come on guys, determining which lens is best from thumbnails......shame on you!!!!!!!

I am sure the poster can see things in the original prints, but from the web images scanned according to an average exposure....dont be silly. You are losing 90% of the detail and commenting on exposure (regardless of changes that would be possible with printing) and contrast (same detail).......
 
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There are 3 suggestions that would make these tests more reliable for me:

1. use a digital RD1 or M8 to eliminate film position issues

2. after you're done with the wide open or wide open + 1, keep exposures consistent among the lenses, don't show a photo from a lens on the same page a stop above or below the others.

3. Focus consistently, use focus markers as shown in my blog, and pointed out to Raid for his 50mm tests.
 
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😀 You guys have gone WACK-A-MO on this. 🙂 I did not produced this lens comparison to make a determination on which lens was better, but simply to show Joe (back alley) how the lenses compared in a similar situation. IIRC, He was asking about characteristics of 90mm lenses and I happened to own some of the lenses he was considering buying. This was a roll of film and twenty minutes with an antsy kid who sat for a bag of skittles.


Blind tests? what the heck? bias? screen resolution? focus markers (Ted!?) 🙂

The broad and general characteristics of a lens particularly when compared against another (even with slop factor), IMO, is discernable at 72 dpi. The differences between lenses is evident in the gallery, and even in a few "name the lens that took this picture" threads that I've seen here. All I was trying to do was put it all on one page for Joe.

🙂
 
Ray: I agree with you on this issue. We are not holding tests for resolution or LPMM counts. The overall rendtion resulting by lenses are shown, and for many people thinking about getting a lens, this is very important. This is my personal opinion.

Raid
 
Amazing how easy things get out of control. :bang: :bang: :bang: We've all gone Wack-a-mo! 😱 😱 😱 I love it!

And sorry, Ray, that your efforts were not fully understood or appreciated! 😱 I, for one, found them useful/helpful/interesting.

-Randy
 
RayPA said:
😀 You guys have gone WACK-A-MO on this. 🙂 I did not produced this lens comparison to make a determination on which lens was better, but simply to show Joe (back alley) how the lenses compared in a similar situation. IIRC, He was asking about characteristics of 90mm lenses and I happened to own some of the lenses he was considering buying. This was a roll of film and twenty minutes with an antsy kid who sat for a bag of skittles.


Blind tests? what the heck? bias? screen resolution? focus markers (Ted!?) 🙂

The broad and general characteristics of a lens particularly when compared against another (even with slop factor), IMO, is discernable at 72 dpi. The differences between lenses is evident in the gallery, and even in a few "name the lens that took this picture" threads that I've seen here. All I was trying to do was put it all on one page for Joe.

🙂
Click to expand...

and joe, that's me, was very appreciative!!

and i agree...this is a hobby site and most of us are amateurs trying to see what gear is like, looks like, feels like etc.
if we wanted more indepth reviews i think most of us would go elsewhere; where that info might be more scientifically researched and presented.
that thumbnail (expands when clicked on btw) was exactly what i needed/wanted at the time.

joe
 
haha

haha

Ray, perhaps we are taking these tests to extremes... However, knowing what you got a college degree in, and knowing that Raid teaches statistics, I thought I should call you guys on the little undergrad knowledge I have about the scientific method 😉

Also, when you said your daughter worked for Skittles, I thought she was a professional kid model for the Candy maker!!

Lol!


RayPA said:
😀 You guys have gone WACK-A-MO on this. 🙂 I did not produced this lens comparison to make a determination on which lens was better, but simply to show Joe (back alley) how the lenses compared in a similar situation. IIRC, He was asking about characteristics of 90mm lenses and I happened to own some of the lenses he was considering buying. This was a roll of film and twenty minutes with an antsy kid who sat for a bag of skittles.


Blind tests? what the heck? bias? screen resolution? focus markers (Ted!?) 🙂

The broad and general characteristics of a lens particularly when compared against another (even with slop factor), IMO, is discernable at 72 dpi. The differences between lenses is evident in the gallery, and even in a few "name the lens that took this picture" threads that I've seen here. All I was trying to do was put it all on one page for Joe.

🙂
Click to expand...
 
ampguy said:
Ray, perhaps we are taking these tests to extremes... However, knowing what you got a college degree in, and knowing that Raid teaches statistics, I thought I should call you guys on the little undergrad knowledge I have about the scientific method 😉

Also, when you said your daughter worked for Skittles, I thought she was a professional kid model for the Candy maker!!

Lol!
Click to expand...

She would work for Skittles only if they paid her in Skittles. Now if I was an engineer I'd make lens tests the way you guys describe them. Actually, I'd make them the way Roland does. I like his approach the best so far. It's a mix of the technical and the practical.

🙂
 
This thread has resulted in a good result; we now better know not to insist on things in a certain way here. Everybody is happy.

Raid
 
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