Steve M.
Veteran
I just had a nightmare experience w/ fleabay and thought I'd post this. It's really interesting.
In brief: I sold an item that the buyer said they never received. It was shipped by USPS Priority Mail w/ delivery confirmation and insurance. USPS website said it was delivered on time. I called USPS and they said I could still file an insurance claim. Cool. So I email the buyer and tell them I'll refund their full amount within a few days and wait on the ck from USPS, which usually takes 3 to 4 weeks. Should take care of things, right?
Nope. The buyer then files a claim w/ ebay stating they didn't trust me and they wanted an immediate refund. Woa. Crazy buyer here. OK, after several very frustrating calls to ebay I say to heck w/ it and give them a full refund. Afterwards the buyer leaves negative feedback! Another call to ebay results in their rep telling me that at ebay "we have rules, and we won't remove feedback that is untruthful of unjust". Hmmmm. That's a peculiar policy for feedback. My wife said "yeah, they have rules that make them money", a spot on statement.
I tell 'em, OK, if that's how you are, I'll close my account. Got enough trouble in my life w/o dealing w/ people like this. Get up this morning, end my auctions, pay off my ebay fees, and go to close my account. Can't do it. System tells me that because I just made a payment to them, I have to wait 30 days to close the account. Jeez, they won't even let me close my account now?
I've seen enough of their dog and pony show to last a lifetime. Good place to buy and sell stuff, but if you ever have a problem you can forget about any rational or ethical anything from these guys. I was really mad, but now I think it's hilarious. What ever made me think they would do the right thing? I must be nuts. Ha!
In brief: I sold an item that the buyer said they never received. It was shipped by USPS Priority Mail w/ delivery confirmation and insurance. USPS website said it was delivered on time. I called USPS and they said I could still file an insurance claim. Cool. So I email the buyer and tell them I'll refund their full amount within a few days and wait on the ck from USPS, which usually takes 3 to 4 weeks. Should take care of things, right?
Nope. The buyer then files a claim w/ ebay stating they didn't trust me and they wanted an immediate refund. Woa. Crazy buyer here. OK, after several very frustrating calls to ebay I say to heck w/ it and give them a full refund. Afterwards the buyer leaves negative feedback! Another call to ebay results in their rep telling me that at ebay "we have rules, and we won't remove feedback that is untruthful of unjust". Hmmmm. That's a peculiar policy for feedback. My wife said "yeah, they have rules that make them money", a spot on statement.
I tell 'em, OK, if that's how you are, I'll close my account. Got enough trouble in my life w/o dealing w/ people like this. Get up this morning, end my auctions, pay off my ebay fees, and go to close my account. Can't do it. System tells me that because I just made a payment to them, I have to wait 30 days to close the account. Jeez, they won't even let me close my account now?
I've seen enough of their dog and pony show to last a lifetime. Good place to buy and sell stuff, but if you ever have a problem you can forget about any rational or ethical anything from these guys. I was really mad, but now I think it's hilarious. What ever made me think they would do the right thing? I must be nuts. Ha!
bwcolor
Veteran
Thanks for letting us know.
Steve M.
Veteran
Oh, I forgot the kicker. If you disagree w/ the feedback and ebay won't remove it, you can go to some outfit called Square Trade, which I'll bet that ebay owns either outright or secretly, and pay them $20. They will assign a "mediator" to petition the buyer to revise their feedback. No guarantees though.
So after losing my item, paying the Paypal fees on the sale (what sale? where's my money?), gifting the buyer their $113.50, and spending a lot of time on the phone w/ very shifty people, they now have a scheme to extort another 20 bucks from me. I've worked in US politics and know first hand about slippery, sneaky people, but the folks at ebay are the REAL pros.
So after losing my item, paying the Paypal fees on the sale (what sale? where's my money?), gifting the buyer their $113.50, and spending a lot of time on the phone w/ very shifty people, they now have a scheme to extort another 20 bucks from me. I've worked in US politics and know first hand about slippery, sneaky people, but the folks at ebay are the REAL pros.
JRG
Well-known
Sorry to hear it, Steve.
I don't sell on eBay, but I have had similar problems with PayPal (big surprise!) with sales on boards such as this, when the buyer claimed that the parcel never arrived.
Basically, Delivery Confirmation buys you (the seller) nothing: It's just a way for the buyer to track the shipment as it occurs. (As one local postmaster told me, "delivery confirmed" just means that the parcel was handed to the carrier who was supposed to make the delivery. If it falls out of his/her bag en route, well, ... .)
As seller, you need to be able to force a signature from the buyer at delivery. With USPS, the best way to force a signature is to insure the parcel for any amount greater than $200: That gets you insurance plus signature.
I'm guessing that you insured for less than $200?
I don't sell on eBay, but I have had similar problems with PayPal (big surprise!) with sales on boards such as this, when the buyer claimed that the parcel never arrived.
Basically, Delivery Confirmation buys you (the seller) nothing: It's just a way for the buyer to track the shipment as it occurs. (As one local postmaster told me, "delivery confirmed" just means that the parcel was handed to the carrier who was supposed to make the delivery. If it falls out of his/her bag en route, well, ... .)
As seller, you need to be able to force a signature from the buyer at delivery. With USPS, the best way to force a signature is to insure the parcel for any amount greater than $200: That gets you insurance plus signature.
I'm guessing that you insured for less than $200?
Tim Gray
Well-known
I'm done selling on ebay for reasons like this. It's not worth it. As a seller you have NO recourse for action if a buyer is dishonest.
wjlapier
Well-known
Same here. Besides, the cost of selling is too much. Rather sell here or fredmiranda, or getdpi.
pphuang
brain drain...
Although I feel bad for your situation, ebay policies have been pretty consistent for quite some time. The key is to obtain signature confirmation. If the buyer signs, he has no claim against you for non-delivery. If the package was actually lost, then you should be able to collect on your insurance claim. The protection is there, you just need to understand the rules and follow them exactly. If you deviate from the rules, you will lose.
If you issue a refund for the money through paypal, you will get back the paypal fees. If you and the buyer then agree to "cancel" the sale, you will get back all of your ebay fees except for the listing fee.
If you issue a refund for the money through paypal, you will get back the paypal fees. If you and the buyer then agree to "cancel" the sale, you will get back all of your ebay fees except for the listing fee.
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
This is somewhat dangerous advice.
That insurance signature means absolutely nothing to the folks at paypal.
Here's why: Paypal's fineprint says that the proof of delivery must be viewable online. And you cannot view USPS insurance signatures online. That's an internal system. The post office will be happy to give you a printout of the recipient's signature. But that does you no good in a Paypal dispute.
To protect yourself when sending an item worth more than $250, you must use the USPS signature confirmation form to have a signature that can be viewed online. If it is less than $250, you can get by with the delivery confirmation form.
I paid $300 to learn that lesson. I'm offering it here today, free of charge.
jmcd
Well-known
Can a signature with USPS Signature Confirmation even be viewed online? From USPS' service description: A delivery record, including the recipient's signature, is maintained by the USPS and is available, via fax or mail, upon request.
Jerry Thirsty
Member
Sounds like the OP got taken by a chargeback scammer. That's been going on for years, but eBay (and Paypal) policies are designed to protect the buyer as much as possible (even the small percentage that are thieves), and leave the seller with all the risk.
pphuang
brain drain...
When you enter your tracking number with signature confirmation, you will be able to view the following online:
---------
Service: Signature Confirmation
Status: Delivered
Your item was delivered at 11:26 am on March 18, 2011 in SF, CA 11111. The item was signed for by Joe Shmoe.
Etc.
----------
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm not sure that the actual signature needs to be viewable, just confirmation that the signature was obtained, and documentation of the person who signed, all viewable online. This is what you get when you pay for signature confirmation.
However, if you were to obtain a copy of the signature, and then scan and upload it to your flickr account where it is now "viewable online," I wonder if this would fulfill the paypal requirements?
MC JC86
Negative Nancy.
Things have been like this on eBay for years, unfortunately. I had an item that took 6 weeks to get to a buyer in-country via USPS parcel post. The buyer left negative feedback very early on in the transaction, despite having a confirmation that it was shipped. Luckily after filing a claim with eBay about the negative (it being the only one) they eventually changed it.
The only recourse you really have is to request a change of feedback, or really plead with eBay, there are cases where they will change the feedback without the buyers input (especially if it's something that user does regularly).
Sorry about your "bad luck" it's really frustrating how some people act simply because they have a degree of anonymity or at least distance between them.
EDIT: I know you said you're done with eBay which is understandable. However, did you check the other feedback this person has left for people? If there is a pattern of them being irresponsible with negative feedback eBay will be more inclined to help. I coordinated with other sellers who had been affected by my buyer in order to rectify the situation. As irritating as it is, persistence combined with courtesy can actually get them to bend sometimes.
The only recourse you really have is to request a change of feedback, or really plead with eBay, there are cases where they will change the feedback without the buyers input (especially if it's something that user does regularly).
Sorry about your "bad luck" it's really frustrating how some people act simply because they have a degree of anonymity or at least distance between them.
EDIT: I know you said you're done with eBay which is understandable. However, did you check the other feedback this person has left for people? If there is a pattern of them being irresponsible with negative feedback eBay will be more inclined to help. I coordinated with other sellers who had been affected by my buyer in order to rectify the situation. As irritating as it is, persistence combined with courtesy can actually get them to bend sometimes.
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Steve M.
Veteran
I'm sad that others have had similar problems. I had 495 positive transactions before this rogue buyer came around. It was bound to happen, and it apparently reduced my feedback to 99.8% positive, but what good is any of that feedback if it can't be removed for being untrue or unjustified?
Paypal is a another big problem, but I've had bad results taking checks. They don't bounce, it's just that no one ever sends them. Most of this buying is impulse, and when someone gets a chance for the excitement to die off, changes occur.
I agree, ebay is all about protecting the buyer and to heck w/ the seller. I wish people here could have heard the phone conversations I had w/ ebay's reps last night. They were just parroting ebay's policies as if they had a script in front of them, and it was like talking to the cat. No thinking, no room for any other side but theirs, etc. I know everyone needs to make a living, but I swear I'd sleep in a homeless shelter before I'd do their job. At least I could live w/ myself afterwards. In 30 days, if ebay allows me!, I'll close my account w/ them and move on. As far as I'm concerned, $113.50 is cheap to find out what the people you're dealing with are really like. It was just a big unpleasant surprise.
Paypal is a another big problem, but I've had bad results taking checks. They don't bounce, it's just that no one ever sends them. Most of this buying is impulse, and when someone gets a chance for the excitement to die off, changes occur.
I agree, ebay is all about protecting the buyer and to heck w/ the seller. I wish people here could have heard the phone conversations I had w/ ebay's reps last night. They were just parroting ebay's policies as if they had a script in front of them, and it was like talking to the cat. No thinking, no room for any other side but theirs, etc. I know everyone needs to make a living, but I swear I'd sleep in a homeless shelter before I'd do their job. At least I could live w/ myself afterwards. In 30 days, if ebay allows me!, I'll close my account w/ them and move on. As far as I'm concerned, $113.50 is cheap to find out what the people you're dealing with are really like. It was just a big unpleasant surprise.
MC JC86
Negative Nancy.
Things have gotten worse and may continue to do so, now that they monopolize the payment services.
atlcruiser
Part Yeti
Sorry to hear of the issues!
I had two canon cam corders I was gifted. I know crap about them so I took them to a local shop to be checked over, tested etc.... both came out perfect with paperwork to back that up. I had zero $$$ in them so I listed them BIN at the low end of average price. My first issue was that I did not require instant payment. Same guy bought both then took 5 weeks to pay. He drug me all around the e bay resolution center but did pay eventually.
I shipped both items insured. He got them then told me they were both defective and wanted his money back. I insisted they were not defective. E bay resolution yet again where i had to pay full refund for both items ( I list full refund if not happy in my auctions) but only after I got them back from him. I got them back; both were trashed. They looked like they were kicked or dropped then I come to find out they were both opened up and parts removed...just so happens these were good, expensive repair parts normally needed for those camcorders :0
Again with e bay resolution and they said too bad....pay him or we take your money from paypal/bank account.
Bottom line I had 2 working/tested cameras and the guy was a crook. I did everything right and still got hosed.
I see it as the price of doing business. I have had well over 500 transactions on e bay and maybe 3 have not gone well; the odds really are in my favor.
The flip side is about 80% of my camera stuff was bought either here or through contacts here with no issues at all
I had two canon cam corders I was gifted. I know crap about them so I took them to a local shop to be checked over, tested etc.... both came out perfect with paperwork to back that up. I had zero $$$ in them so I listed them BIN at the low end of average price. My first issue was that I did not require instant payment. Same guy bought both then took 5 weeks to pay. He drug me all around the e bay resolution center but did pay eventually.
I shipped both items insured. He got them then told me they were both defective and wanted his money back. I insisted they were not defective. E bay resolution yet again where i had to pay full refund for both items ( I list full refund if not happy in my auctions) but only after I got them back from him. I got them back; both were trashed. They looked like they were kicked or dropped then I come to find out they were both opened up and parts removed...just so happens these were good, expensive repair parts normally needed for those camcorders :0
Again with e bay resolution and they said too bad....pay him or we take your money from paypal/bank account.
Bottom line I had 2 working/tested cameras and the guy was a crook. I did everything right and still got hosed.
I see it as the price of doing business. I have had well over 500 transactions on e bay and maybe 3 have not gone well; the odds really are in my favor.
The flip side is about 80% of my camera stuff was bought either here or through contacts here with no issues at all
jmcd
Well-known
But does Paypal actually honor this as "a signature that can be viewed online." Or would this be another link in a chain of unsatisfactory proof. I don't know, just trying to find out.
I have not sold anything on Ebay for years, I would rather donate it to charity and take the tax-deduction instead.
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
It doesn't need to be the physical signature. Just a way for them to get online verification that the thing was signed for by the recipient.
But no, you posting it online wouldn't count. In my case, I tried to send them a copy of the signed insurance form.
All they would do was point me to the fine print and say it didn't count.
I complained to enough people that they ended up splitting the loss with me (the original amount was $600).
Now, I send virtually everything with signature confirmation, just for my own peace of mind.
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
Going back through Paypal's rules, they are fairly confusing, depending on whether the person claims they never received an item - or they claimed they never ordered the item in the first place.
I'm just going to cover the issue of the recipient denying they received item. In that case, you have to show proof of delivery:
I've taken these passages from Paypal's Seller Protection FAQ. The bolding was done by me:
What is proof of delivery?
"Proof of delivery indicates that the item was delivered to the recipient, and generally comes in the form of an online tracking number. It shows the city, state, and zip to which the package was shipped, the date the package was delivered, and its delivery status. For payments of $250 USD or more, a signature confirmation of receipt is also required. The proof of delivery doesn't need to show the full street address since some shipping companies don't include this information. The city and state or zip code (or equivalent) is normally acceptable."
How can I submit proof of delivery?
"If you are responding to a claim or a chargeback for an item-not-received, we accept online tracking information as proof of delivery in the Resolution Center."
You just have to protect yourself. I bought a lens the other day from an e-bay seller. He shipped the thing uninsured and without signature confirmation. Fortunately for him, I'm honest. I could have denied the thing ever arrived and gotten my money back. And there would have been nothing he could do about it.
I'm just going to cover the issue of the recipient denying they received item. In that case, you have to show proof of delivery:
I've taken these passages from Paypal's Seller Protection FAQ. The bolding was done by me:
What is proof of delivery?
"Proof of delivery indicates that the item was delivered to the recipient, and generally comes in the form of an online tracking number. It shows the city, state, and zip to which the package was shipped, the date the package was delivered, and its delivery status. For payments of $250 USD or more, a signature confirmation of receipt is also required. The proof of delivery doesn't need to show the full street address since some shipping companies don't include this information. The city and state or zip code (or equivalent) is normally acceptable."
How can I submit proof of delivery?
"If you are responding to a claim or a chargeback for an item-not-received, we accept online tracking information as proof of delivery in the Resolution Center."
You just have to protect yourself. I bought a lens the other day from an e-bay seller. He shipped the thing uninsured and without signature confirmation. Fortunately for him, I'm honest. I could have denied the thing ever arrived and gotten my money back. And there would have been nothing he could do about it.
Thardy
Veteran
Same here.