A Sonnar by any other name

[dexdog]

I have these two lenses, the Canon 50/1.5 in LTM and the 85/2 Nikkor in Contax RF mount.

 

[furcafe]

My understanding is that the 8.5cm/2 Nikkor-P is more of a variation of the pre-WWII Sonnar than a straight copy. 1 of our more optically-literate members like Brian Sweeney &/or 1 of the other Nikon RF forum regulars like Vince C. may be able to point you to the lens diagrams, etc. but I recall the Nikkor having a larger front element. The elements/groups may also be spaced differently. All of these factors may account for why my LTM Nikkor-P is noticeably more front-heavy than my Sonnars (I have 1 pre-war Jena, 1 post-war Jena, & 1 post-war Zeiss-Opton). The chrome Nikkor-P is close in overall weight to the pre-war Sonnar, i.e., both feel like they're machined out of solid brass.

Mechanics aside, my experience is very similar to Dexdog's & ZeissFan's: I find it difficult to distinguish between Nikkor-P shots & those taken w/the post-war Sonnars. Unlike Roland, I haven't noticed any higher resolution or contrast from the Nikkor @ f/2.8 compared to the Sonnars, but I think there's enough sample variation among all of these vintage lenses that I don't doubt his observations.

How close to the original Zeiss 85mm Sonnar is the Nikkor 85? What say ye?

 

[venchka]

I'm trying to complete my Nikkor Sonnar Dynamic Duo. Roland is willing. The USPS seems to be causing us a problem. Stay tuned. Film at 11.

 

[dberger]

My understanding is that the 8.5cm/2 Nikkor-P is more of a variation of the pre-WWII Sonnar than a straight copy. 1 of our more optically-literate members like Brian Sweeney &/or 1 of the other Nikon RF forum regulars like Vince C. may be able to point you to the lens diagrams, etc. but I recall the Nikkor having a larger front element. The elements/groups may also be spaced differently. All of these factors may account for why my LTM Nikkor-P is noticeably more front-heavy than my Sonnars (I have 1 pre-war Jena, 1 post-war Jena, & 1 post-war Zeiss-Opton). The chrome Nikkor-P is close in overall weight to the pre-war Sonnar, i.e., both feel like they're machined out of solid brass.

Mechanics aside, my experience is very similar to Dexdog's & ZeissFan's: I find it difficult to distinguish between Nikkor-P shots & those taken w/the post-war Sonnars. Unlike Roland, I haven't noticed any higher resolution or contrast from the Nikkor @ f/2.8 compared to the Sonnars, but I think there's enough sample variation among all of these vintage lenses that I don't doubt his observations.

The Zeiss 85/2 Sonnars, from the prewar Contax days through the postwar Contax/Contarex systems, have the same basic layout: 3 groups with 7 elements, with a single element up front, a cemented triplet next, and a cemented triplet behind the aperture. The rangefinder Nikkor 85/2 has a 3 group/5 element Sonnar layout, with the rearmost group being a single element rather than a triplet. I am sure other design aspects differ between the Nikkor and Zeiss Sonnars (e.g., element geometries, air spacing, glass types), but the most obvious difference is the rear group.

BTW, the Nikkor 105/2.5 (rangefinder and first version SLR) has the same 3g/5e layout, which is, interestingly, similar to the old Contax Olympia-Sonnar 180/2.8. The fast Nikkor 85/1.5 has the classic Sonnar layout (3g/7e).

All Zeiss and Nikkor 85/2 lenses are great, and the Nikkor 85/2 in LTM seems to be especially plentiful and inexpensive these days on ebay. I encourage anyone who wants a fast medium-long lens to get one; they make beautiful images.

Cheers,

David

 

[furcafe]

Thanks for the clarification. I recall that the "P" in "Nikkor-P" stood for the 5 elements (from Greek "pent").

The Zeiss 85/2 Sonnars, from the prewar Contax days through the postwar Contax/Contarex systems, have the same basic layout: 3 groups with 7 elements, with a single element up front, a cemented triplet next, and a cemented triplet behind the aperture. The rangefinder Nikkor 85/2 has a 3 group/5 element Sonnar layout, with the rearmost group being a single element rather than a triplet. I am sure other design aspects differ between the Nikkor and Zeiss Sonnars (e.g., element geometries, air spacing, glass types), but the most obvious difference is the rear group.

BTW, the Nikkor 105/2.5 (rangefinder and first version SLR) has the same 3g/5e layout, which is, interestingly, similar to the old Contax Olympia-Sonnar 180/2.8. The fast Nikkor 85/1.5 has the classic Sonnar layout (3g/7e).

All Zeiss and Nikkor 85/2 lenses are great, and the Nikkor 85/2 in LTM seems to be especially plentiful and inexpensive these days on ebay. I encourage anyone who wants a fast medium-long lens to get one; they make beautiful images.

Cheers,

David

 

[Sonnar2]

The ZEISS Sonnar (from at least 1939 up to the Contarex version of the late 60's) looks like this

and the NIKON 85/2 RF looks like

So any more questions whether they are the same design?

 

[LeicaTom]

Ready For Action....

Well, I just got the Nikkor f2.0 85mm in the mail this morning and mated her up with my
1946 "Half Race" Leica IIIC, does`nt look too bad now does it?

It`s in almost like new condition, the glass is crystal clear and spotless, I really have a nice lens here......I was lucky 🙂

....this lens has some weight to it and the build quality there is simply amazing

I`m impressed enough with that.......now let`s see why
David Duncan Douglas made this lens so famous 😉

Tom

 

[ferider]

Cool 🙂

Duncan used an M3 though. I predict that you will get annoyed by that
little VF pretty quickly 🙂

Roland.

 

[LeicaTom]

Cool 🙂

Duncan used an M3 though. I predict that you will get annoyed by that
little VF pretty quickly 🙂

Roland.

The VF is kinda a pain in the a**......it`s compact and kool looking , but think I`ll need a better BIGGER one, especially when I`m shooting the indoor "motel" pinups in low light situations....
A Leitz VOOH with a 85mm setting (an early 1950`s one that`s maybe a good idea?) or does one of the Leitz sport finders have a setting for 85mm?

Well, according to legend it was "this" lens that after a colleague took some shots with it and showed Douglas the photos he was so impressed that he toured the Nippon Kogaku factory
(ca. 1950) and thus fueled the interest for these lenses in LTM ......and the Nikon name was etched into history 🙂
(he worked with Leica IIIC`s in Korea)

Tom

PS: He may have used an M3 (I`m sure) but the Korean War, 85' Nikkor`s and Leica IIIC`s were all over by the time the M3 was introduced in 1954

 

[ferider]

The VF is kinda a pain in the ass......it`s compact and kool looking , but think I`ll need a better BIGGER one, a VOOH with a 85mm setting
(an early 1950`s one that`s maybe a good idea?)

Well, according to legend it was "this" lens that after a colleague took some shots with it and showed Douglas the photos he was so impressed that he toured the Nippon Kogaku factory
(ca. 1950) and thus fueled the interest for these lenses in LTM ......and the Nikon name was etched into history 🙂
(he worked with Leica IIIC`s in Korea)

Tom

PS: He may have used an M3 (I`m sure) but the Korean War, 85' Nikkor`s and Leica IIIC`s were all over by the time the M3 was introduced in 1954

You are right, just checked, he used LTMs with the 85/2 in Korea.

You wonder if he switched over to Nikon RFs when they came out ....
(the S2 at the same time as the M3). Anybody knows ?

Another interesting thing is that he used the Nikkor 50/1.5 initially
which might be closer in character to the Canon 50/1.5 than to the
later Nikkor 50/1.4.

I would avoid a VOOH if I were you. Maybe a Leitz or Cosina 90mm
brightline finder ?

Enjoy,

Roland.

 

[LeicaTom]

You are right, just checked, he used LTMs with the 85/2 in Korea.

You wonder if he switched over to Nikon RFs when they came out ....
(the S2 at the same time as the M3). Anybody knows ?

Another interesting thing is that he used the Nikkor 50/1.5 initially
which might be closer in character to the Canon 50/1.5 than to the
later Nikkor 50/1.4.

I would avoid a VOOH if I were you. Maybe a Leitz or Cosina 90mm
brightline finder ?

Enjoy,

Roland.

Yes, you have a point there.....I just sold the "Generals" VIOOH and while it looked really kool on top of the IIIC, it was bulky
I`ll see if I can bare with the Nikkor finder long enough for it not to matter anymore 🙂

I think DDD went mostly Nikon after Korea, but I`m not 100% sure

F1.5 Nikkor 50mm LTM - hahahahahhaha now that`s a RARE animal, I highly doubt I`ll ever get a chance to TEST that one out on my gals, not at the $2,500+ collectors pricetag I`ve seen on them 🙁

While everyone like`s to have "clean" equipment, I`d really not mind if I could find these lenses in a well "used" state, with good performing glass, to me really that`s all that counts, while I do have this "thing" for rarer gear, I want to use it rather then leave it lay around and collect dust 🙂

Tom

PS; In like less then 3 hours I should have my FIRST test roll through my Leica IIIC K
I can`t wait!!!!

 

[varjag]

The ZEISS Sonnar (from at least 1939 up to the Contarex version of the late 60's) looks like this

and the NIKON 85/2 RF looks like

So any more questions whether they are the same design?

It is not as simple as that.

The above is a diagram for Sonnar 135/4 design. Configuration of elements can vary a lot (depending on glass combinations, amount of correction needed etc) as long as distribution of optical strengths in the groups is maintained.

 

[Harry Lime]

Cool 🙂

Duncan used an M3 though. I predict that you will get annoyed by that
little VF pretty quickly 🙂

Roland.

Later he shot with 'custom' M3 cameras.

In Korea he shot with two IIIc bodies and 'discoverd' Nikon lenses enroute to the warzone. The Nikon 1.5/50 cost a fraction of the Zeiss and performed identical or slightly better. Same for the longer glass.

 

[LeicaTom]

Well, I`ll be....Harry Lime lives! 🙂

Tom

 

[Harry Lime]

Well, I`ll be....Harry Lime lives! 🙂

Tom

But of course he does, old man.

😉


HL

 

[NIKON KIU]

I just ....

Get ready Leica IIIC
because I have another mistress lens for you 😀

Tom

Don't forget the lens screws into the camera....
I think you found a mistress for your Nikkor😀

Kiu

 

[LeicaTom]

Don't forget the lens screws into the camera....
I think you found a mistress for your Nikkor😀

Kiu

Hahahahahhaahaaaaa!!!! 😀

Tom