A Summing up- and a Decision

[jaapv]

Ten weeks with the M8 now- time to take stock:
Ten weeks of a roller-coaster ride on the internet, but what were my personal experiences?
The magenta issue:
The first flash shot of Patricia in a black synthetic jumper with a black cat on her lap: horrible.
Twenty minutes internet and a twenty minute drive to the camera shop solved that one.
The use of filters: does it bother me ?
Yes- but the results are fine and flare very much limited. So most is in my mind, not reality.
The banding and the blobs:
I still have to see a blob, but about 5 % of my night shots have some banding, obtrusive in 1%.
The reliability of the camera:
I had a major reset once, but basically it was my own fault for not switching the camera off before putting it into its case where the shutter was half-pressed for hours on end, plus some other buttons.
The battery has some issues and I would dearly like to have a spare one, but I'll let Solms solve that next week.
The quality of the results.
Each shot leaves me stunned. This camera is so much more capable than I am.. Magnitudes better than the Digilux2, which in turn was better than the Canon 20D. The dynamic range and subtility far outperform film in my hands.
Night shots: incredible.
And it is a true Leica M RF.

So my decision has been made: The M6 goes, the Digilux2 goes, some other stuff goes and I will buy a second M8 body and live happily ever after.:angel:

 

[Geoff Smith]

This is great to hear. I've been on the rollercoaster too, having gotten on a list to receive an M8 the last week of October. I've come close to cancelling my order a couple of times, but hearing this (and similar posts here and on the LUF) has me more excited than ever. I'd almost take a chrome body at this point . Can't wait! (I'm told mid-January by my guy and that's borne out by talking to other dealer as well)

 

[Ben Z]

Magnitudes better than the Digilux2, which in turn was better than the Canon 20D.

I'm willing to grant that once agreed to look past the filter travesty the M8 no doubt has the possibility to surpass the imaging quality of a 20D ( even if for no other reason than it has more pixels on a larger sensor and uses Leica M lenses). But the 5mp Panny with fixed-range zoom and smaller sensor "better" than SLR interchangable lens 8mp 20D? I'm sure there must be a very subjective definition of "better" at work here

 

[jaapv]

No Mp-race ,Ben indeed totally subjective. I simply like the look of the prints better. The whole post is subjective and a personal asessment, in case you did not notice . And that zoom- I wish it were not fixed, but usable on other camera's, but, och, sensor size and such.

 

[Robert]

An honest assessment of the M8, I will buy one soon.

 

[jaapv]

This is my worst banding shot (don't confuse the corner of the building with a band) and it has filter flare - and I like it nevertheless - and I could never have done it on film. ISO 1250, Summilux 75 @ 1.4

 

[Richard Marks]

summing up etc

summing up etc

I have to say its a difficult decision. Forget the internet stuff though. I have an MP and am awaiting my M8 in the next week or so. My dilema is if i keep the MP or trade it for more lenses. I will not really be able to answer this until a few weeks have gone, but having taken the M8 for a walk from the camera shop in sheffield I can say that it is seriously impressive (4 images posted on this site). It is the colour rendition that has impressed me as much as the absolute resolution. It really does give the subtleties of tone and shade that are needed to fully complement m glass. If there is anything which makes me hang onto the MP it will be the black and white. Digi B&W verus film. Its simply the character of some film emulsions that I admire.

 

[jaapv]

And the second body will be chrome as well....For those that think this a waste -I can understand that, but I tend to travel for weeks on end in the less accesible parts of this planet. If a camera breaks down (or if I break a camera- it happens, 4-WDrives on unsurfaced roads and clouds of dust are not really a friendly environment for camera's and I've been known to slip and fall flat on various parts of my anatomy when walking in rough terrain with a camera on my shoulder) the loss is irreplacable. I've had journeys that I started with three bodies and ended with one limping camera. Both Leica M and R and Canon Eos DSLR. As the experience is worth a multiple of the cost of a M8 to me, it pays for me to have redundancy. I was planning to take the M6 and a bunch of film, but the way the M8 insinuated itself into my photographic universe has changed all that.

 

[MCTuomey]

glad to read of your resolve and pleasure in the M8

beautiful color rendition in your posted pic, and obviously well-handled high ISO performance. i'd be pleased, too

 

[dspeltz]

My second M8 (black this time) should be in shortly. Redundancy in travel is key for me as well. I plan to carry a film M back, for B&W slides and film however.

I find myself using the 28/50/75 combination more than the 35/90 combination on the film body, however. I have to sort that out.

 

[kbg32]

Jaap, I appreciate your honest assessment of the M8. I unfortunately am waiting until February for a shipment of black bodies to arrive. I wish is was here now!

Cheers.

 

[spersky]

I posted this on another message board. I decided to express my opinion here as well. I appreciate the threads I read here and wanted to to forth my opinion.

For 5000 thousand dollars, I have seen the M8 and all the reviews, and personally I am shocked that people are still buying that camera until things get fixed. Think about it; this camera is 5000 dollars. I was right along with the rest of everyone until I did a reality check and said woah, "I am about to spend 5k for a camera with multiple bugs, no dust or weather sealing, and requires IR filters for most situations (even nature shots), and will likely be upgraded by Leica to an M9 in at least a year.

On a side note I really do understand why every loves the Leica M system. It really pains me to complain about Leica in general because their lenses are just so amazing. I have found similar results however with extreme pain by lugging around my one ton brick called the Canon 1Ds Mark2.

P.S. I have seen some awsome picture from Leica M8 users. Pictures that want to make me go out and get the camera. However, when I do a reality check I realize that for 5k the camera is to flawed to be used effectively in many situations that is was intended. I understand that this post will seriously piss off many Leica fans out there who want to justify that huge purchase.

Disclaimer: I do not own a Leica M8. I have done a ton of research and cancelled my order for the Leica M8. I just want to provide a moment of pause before people pay 5k for a camera in beta testing phase. This digital M8 is not like the M7 that will last forever, in about a year the price of that camera will likely plument as Leica fixes the IR sensor problem with a revise camera. That is a long term deal breaker for the longevity of this camera.

Regards,
Steve

 

[Ken Tanaka]

For 5000 thousand dollars, I have seen the M8 and all the reviews, and personally I am shocked that people are still buying that camera until things get fixed. Think about it; this camera is 5000 dollars. I was right along with the rest of everyone until I did a reality check and said woah, "I am about to spend 5k for a camera with multiple bugs, no dust or weather sealing, and requires IR filters for most situations (even nature shots), and will likely be upgraded by Leica to an M9 in at least a year.

On a side note I really do understand why every loves the Leica M system. It really pains me to complain about Leica in general because their lenses are just so amazing. I have found similar results however with extreme pain by lugging around my one ton brick called the Canon 1Ds Mark2.

P.S. I have seen some awsome picture from Leica M8 users. Pictures that want to make me go out and get the camera. However, when I do a reality check I realize that for 5k the camera is to flawed to be used effectively in many situations that is was intended. I understand that this post will seriously piss off many Leica fans out there who want to justify that huge purchase.

Disclaimer: I do not own a Leica M8. I have done a ton of research and cancelled my order for the Leica M8. I just want to provide a moment of pause before people pay 5k for a camera in beta testing phase. This digital M8 is not like the M7 that will last forever, in about a year the price of that camera will likely plument as Leica fixes the IR sensor problem with a revise camera. That is a long term deal breaker for the longevity of this camera.

Regards,
Steve

I could not agree more with you, Steve. As an M7 owner I very much wanted the M8 to be a complete winner out of the starting blocks, and I very much wanted to have one as soon as possible. But this early digital M is not a good or rational investment by any measure, regardless of how many Internet pundits try to make it seem so. It imposes far too many technical and operational compromises for a digital camera in this age. I'm sure that the early sight-unseen presales
for the M8 have given Leica a desperately needed infusion of cash. But I doubt that that sales pace will be sustainable as word spreads about the camera's quirks. Five thousand dollars is a lot of money, particularly for such a limited camera.

I do differ with you on one point. I, too, have looked at many M8 images both online and offline RAW files. But I've not yet seen any M8 image that really screams Leica lens quality the way that a good film Leica capture so often can. Certainly this is due in part to the extremely visually limited nature of the Internet. It's also due to the source of the images I've inspected offline, nearly all of which were captured by weekend shutterbugs (their kids, their driveways, their cars, their homes, sunsets, ordinary street snaps, that sort of fare). So it's unfair to judge the camera's capabilities (under operationally adequate conditions). Its Kodak sensor appears to produce a rather Nikon-like rendering, which is fine.

It's essential to Leica's survival that the digital M be a long-term success. That is to say that Leica's pace of development will have to accelerate far beyond its historically geological rate. Technicians and engineers harboring characteristically obstinate "can't be done" attitudes will have to be replaced with younger, sharper, and more ambitious minds...even in the stodgy German labor market. An "M9" or "M8i" that remedies the M8's birth defects must be developed quickly. When that happens, as it must, the M8 will become a collectors item, but lacking the antique value that older film M's have retained.

I look forward to using my Leica M lenses with a digital M one day in the future. But common sense dictates that the M8 as it exists today is simply not worth $5,000.

 

[MP Guy]

Jaapv,

I am with you here. I have the M8 and am more than satisfyed with it. I will keep my MP since it is a work of mechanical art. Nothing comes close to its function and feel. I wish the M8 lloked and felt like my MP. Having said that. The MP will be my last film camera. Although I mainly shoot the M8 now and still do some work with the MP, I may actually go for another M8 in black.

 

[jaapv]

I hear you Jorge - there will always be a M3 in my case. However, I notice that in this thread, as in others, the negative feedback comes from non-owners. Surprisingly, I have yet to read a real negative report on the camera from anybody who has actually been using one for some time - only the rather impulsive "back into the box it goes" threads and "I read the internet and cancelled" type of thing. Maybe that tells us more about the posters than about the camera. Even the most vocal anti-M8 poster on this forum freely admits his problem is not with the camera but with Leica as a firm. Well- maybe - "I shoot for a living and it is not a type of camera I can use for my work" -fair enough.

 

[rover]

However, I notice that in this thread, as in others, the negative feedback comes from non-owners.

So true.

Honestly, I have no intention of buying an M8, and I do have reservations about it due to the problems it has had, but the users of the camera are seeing something that they really like. Does this change my mind? No. But who knows more about the camera, me or an owner?

I appreciate the conversations about the M8 as a learning experience. I look forward to when they "cool down" and become discussions.

 

[Keith]

I hear you Jorge - there will always be a M3 in my case. However, I notice that in this thread, as in others, the negative feedback comes from non-owners. Surprisingly, I have yet to read a real negative report on the camera from anybody who has actually been using one for some time - only the rather impulsive "back into the box it goes" threads and "I read the internet and cancelled" type of thing. Maybe that tells us more about the posters than about the camera. Even the most vocal anti-M8 poster on this forum freely admits his problem is not with the camera but with Leica as a firm. Well- maybe - "I shoot for a living and it is not a type of camera I can use for my work" -fair enough.

I agree with you that 'some' negative feedback comes from non owners Jaapv ... but a lot of this is from people who have weighed up the pros and cons of shelling out $5000.00 for a camera that is 'almost' right. That's a lot of money for some and less for others ... depending on your income level I guess. Obviously the prospect of paying that much for a camera that will certainly be improved in subsequent models, with the corresponding depreciation in resale value of the original M8, is an intimidating prospect monitarily!

I'm not about to drop that much money on a product that will probabaly be worth half it's value when they replace it with the 'latest version' and I'm sure a lot of others feel the same way!

 

[jaapv]

I fully respect anybody for an buying decision -or non-buying- he or she makes,surely that is a personal thing. The only thing I say is: the negatives come from non-buyers, the positives from owners. Quite irrespective of the price: who is in the best position to judge? And if you are happy in the fact you did decide not to buy, that was certainly the right decision - for you. But be prepared to have some actual users call some of your trepidations not relevant to the quality of the camera in question in actual use, or at worst, acceptable for the price. 5000$ for a top of the line digital camera, sadly, is nothing unusual any more, rather the bottom end of the range. I might remind you there are posters wavering between the M8 and MF digital backs, comparisons to the biggest Canons, etc. Not that all of that makes sense, but it does indicate the league the M8 is playing in. And as I said- my post is totally subjective and the camera works for me. And yes, it is a lot of money that would buy me a truckload of candy bars, but for the camera as is? Not unreasonably much really, imo.

 

[Sparrow]

The problem is that the same people who were chanting “it’s going to be great” and banging the leica drum before the launch are now chanting “its better than you think” and banging the same drum, it makes it difficult to know the true position.
Personally I can’t come to terms with the crop factor so I try not to comment, or on the rd1 for that matter, but of late it’s been difficult find threads that don’t involve the m8 or rd1

 

[spersky]

To the Leica M8 owners. I am not trying to impune your opinion that the Leica M8 is an awsome camera, and it fufills your greatest photographic desires and fantasies. I am sure it is a wonderful camera. However, I was just trying to provide some contructive perspective for new people come here to read about a new camera. They might get caught up in all the Leica "fan boi" fanfair.

Of course I do not own the camera. I already stated I do not, I know that people who use the camera are really happy with it. That does still does not make it a buy at all costs type of camera.

Can someone tell me why I cannot have an opinion on the camera since I do not own it? I know what I like to photograph. I have read the limitations of the camera. What is the point of a forum that only gives one perspective on a topic without any pause or reservation to the contrary.