A Summing up- and a Decision

[Nick R.]

Jaap, I appreciate your honest assessment of the M8. I unfortunately am waiting until February for a shipment of black bodies to arrive. I wish is was here now!

Cheers.

I saw a black body M8 sitting on the shelf behind the Leica counter at Bergen County Camera yesterday. I don't know the camera's story, but if you want one sooner, you might give them a call. They're located just outside of Manhattan in Westwood, NJ.

 

[peter_n]

Good luck Jaap, great to read that you are so enthusiastic. Yes a backup is a wise investment!

 

[kbg32]

Thanks Nick. I'll give them a call and see what's up with it.

 

[Ben Z]

I agree with Ken Tanaka and Spersky 100%. The Titanic was as beautiful and capable a ship as the M8 is a beautiful and capable camera, but as it turned out the people who opted not to book passage on its maiden voyage were the ones whose opinion history has validated So it's unfair to say that someone has to buy into something for his opinion to be valid. In fact, the propensity on camera forums is for people to defend their camera purchases as if it were their core intelligence being called into question.

 

[Ken Tanaka]

I fully respect anybody for an buying decision -or non-buying- he or she makes,surely that is a personal thing. The only thing I say is: the negatives come from non-buyers, the positives from owners. Quite irrespective of the price: who is in the best position to judge? And if you are happy in the fact you did decide not to buy, that was certainly the right decision - for you. But be prepared to have some actual users call some of your trepidations not relevant to the quality of the camera in question in actual use, or at worst, acceptable for the price. 5000$ for a top of the line digital camera, sadly, is nothing unusual any more, rather the bottom end of the range. I might remind you there are posters wavering between the M8 and MF digital backs, comparisons to the biggest Canons, etc. Not that all of that makes sense, but it does indicate the league the M8 is playing in. And as I said- my post is totally subjective and the camera works for me. And yes, it is a lot of money that would buy me a truckload of candy bars, but for the camera as is? Not unreasonably much really, imo.

Your characterization of those who have observed the M8's properties from the sidelines, have chosen not to buy one, and then expressed their reasoning as stone-throwing, poor-boy ignoramuses is, at best, a deferment and a denial. The camera's engineering shortcomings are well-documented and not matters of speculation or even debate. That new owners come forward to offer the camera praise on Internet forums is also to be expected. There were people praising the camera on the Leica forums nearly a year before it existed.

If there are "...posters wavering between the M8 and MF digital backs..." they represent the general crowd of young men who spend far more of their time on photo forums debating and fantasizing about camera equipment than in the actual act of photography. Cost differences notwithstanding, even a perfect M8 would not present such a dilemma to any knowledgeable photographer.

If you are remorselessly enjoying your M8 good for you. That you and other new owners have granted the M8 a halo, at least for the time being, is to be expected. I've chosen to skip it; its limitations simply do not represent a reasonable value proposition for its cost and inconveniences. I would be eager to jump at a good digital rangefinder, by Leica or someone else, when/if it becomes available. Until then my 1DsII, 1DII, 5D, M7, (and even my little Canon G7!) are more than adequate to meet my needs and desires indefinitely.

- Ken Tanaka -

 

[Sailor Ted]

Well it's too soon to tell but I'm not in love with mine yet. It took me aprox 20 compositions before I fell in love with the R-D1s so I've not really had the opportunity to put the M8 through it's paces (to be fair I was in Hong Kong when I got my R-D1s and Hong Kong resides among the best cities on earth for taking pictures IMO. Currently I'm stuck behind the Orange Curtain (Orange County California.) I tried to do a little photo essay in my freindly neighborhood supermarket last night to share here on RFf, and to test the camera, and was told I would have to leave if I continued!

For reasons similar to those posted by AUS DLK and in my first ever post here on RFf, namely this cameras ergonomics, I can't quite warm up to the M8. In fact I find my self trying to sell myself on this camera, then catch myself in the process. Vegas will be the litmus test for my new Leica and if it does not pass muster it's up for sale or I may fall in love, learn to work around its ergonomic issues as I see them, and share my journey to long term M8 ownership here on RFf. At this point it's just too soon to tell.

 

[JohanV]

@ Jaap, Jorge and all those others ordering their second M8 body;

Will you all please wait until I get delivery of my first one?

Thanks, that was quite a relief.

 

[jaapv]

Just ordered a chrome one. My dealer told me 40% of the first delivery customers had come back for seconds. It must count for something. I never belittled anybody for choosung differently than I did. It might be a good idea to actually read my posts before accusing me of stone-throwing. I literally said: "If you are comfortable with your decision you made the right one" Please grant me the same courtesy.

 

[Ken Tanaka]

... I never belittled anybody for choosung differently than I did. It might be a good idea to actually read my posts before accusing me of stone-throwing. I literally said: "If you are comfortable with your decision you made the right one" Please grant me the same courtesy.

Earlier you wrote:

I hear you Jorge - there will always be a M3 in my case. However, I notice that in this thread, as in others, the negative feedback comes from non-owners. Surprisingly, I have yet to read a real negative report on the camera from anybody who has actually been using one for some time - only the rather impulsive "back into the box it goes" threads and "I read the internet and cancelled" type of thing. Maybe that tells us more about the posters than about the camera. Even the most vocal anti-M8 poster on this forum freely admits his problem is not with the camera but with Leica as a firm. Well- maybe - "I shoot for a living and it is not a type of camera I can use for my work" -fair enough.

Those were the remarks that precipitated my observation that you were suggesting that non-owners were throwing stones at owners. What other inference could be drawn from them?

- Ken Tanaka -

 

[shadowfox]

To summarize what I've read in this interesting thread:

- I don't see a single negative feedback, only cautions from prudent photogs who have chosen to wait until the M8 has "stabilized" (which is a phenomenon that happen when you marry *anything* with computers)

- I see equally prudent M8 owners who fell in love with the camera and are supplying us with good first hand information. Thank you all for that!

- Sadly, I see that M8 (once again, because it's married to a computer) will fall into the downward spiral of decreasing value along with other digital cameras. Why? because there is no point of buying a used M8 when the M9 has arrived with 14Mpixel and upgraded picture engine *unless* the price falls by half.

- This said, in the long run, I have the same fear as before for the future of cameras if we continue this path of digitalization, unless we come back to the great equalizers (film being one of them). Case to point: there is a healthy used-market for film camera, do you see one for digital cameras?

jaap: while your posted picture is *very* good, I want to know how you can conclude that the picture can never be taken using film? are you referring to the high ISO or the 3-D quality (which seems to have more to do with the lens than the media).

 

[jaapv]

I could not, when looking at the print. I bow to superior skills....

 

[Ben Z]

- Sadly, I see that M8 (once again, because it's married to a computer) will fall into the downward spiral of decreasing value along with other digital cameras. Why? because there is no point of buying a used M8 when the M9 has arrived with 14Mpixel and upgraded picture engine *unless* the price falls by half.

Personally I don't have any issue with 10mp or the 1.3x crop, so though I'd be happy to see the M9 with more mp and less cropping (though not if it would mean more suprise "compromises" ) I don't really expect that until the M10 . What I do expect in the M9 is an IR filter in the camera so it doesn't need addon filters. I think Leica knows that's an embarassment of this camera now (as has been pointed out in the photo press and elsewhere aside from Leica forums where the zealous fans tend to weigh more heavily) and I'll bet a dollar they've already put in an order to their cohorts to get on it ASAP. So I expect the M8 in its current iteration to have an unusually short product life even for a digital camera in this day and age.

- Case to point: there is a healthy used-market for film camera, do you see one for digital cameras?

Well I wouldn't exactly call the market for used film cameras healthy, more like a bonanza for the small number of people, relative to digital, still interested in film. And that's considering basically a 10 yr old film camera is capable of the same image quality as a new one (are there any still?). But surprisingly the market for certain digitals seems to be holding quite steady and is in fact "healthy" by my definition. The 6mp Canon and Nikon DSLRs seem to be holding steady in the $400-500 range, which is a price-point ceiling for a lot of people who are priced out of DSLRs otherwise. I believe the 8mp Canons and the 5D once it is discontiued, will also be in-demand for quite some time.

jaap: while your posted picture is *very* good, I want to know how you can conclude that the picture can never be taken using film?

Honestly, on the web nothing I've seen really lets me conclude anything meaningful comparing one digital to another, or to film. It's the combination of too many variables and the effects of compression sufficient for up/downloading. What I can say from Jaap's shots is that if he says the prints show this or that, I'm inclined to take his word (most of the time anyway, I'm still not convinced the Digilux 2 can lay down a superior file to the 20D if both are postprocessed to the best ability).

 

[jaapv]

The 20D has better resolution and is smoother, in technical terms better. Vladimer would prefer the Digilux2 print. And so would I.

 

[jaapv]

Earlier you wrote:

Originally Posted by jaapv
I hear you Jorge - there will always be a M3 in my case. However, I notice that in this thread, as in others, the negative feedback comes from non-owners. Surprisingly, I have yet to read a real negative report on the camera from anybody who has actually been using one for some time.

Those were the remarks that precipitated my observation that you were suggesting that non-owners were throwing stones at owners. What other inference could be drawn from them?

- Ken Tanaka -

That tells me that they are more prone to listen to the opinion of others (on the Internet) than make their own observations. I don't see that as a negativism. If you take it that way -sorry. Not intended.

That the positive feedback comes from owners and the negative from not-owners is an observation, and not a stone thrown. The inference that owners know more about the capabilities -and drawbacks- of the camera seems to me to be a logical and irrefutable one.






.

Jaap, you have to admit, that posting news, user-opinions and success reports in a forum with more than 6000 members, less than 30 of which have purchased an M8 invites criticism and opinions from non-owners. Simply put: you M8 users are a very vocal group; don't tell anybody else to shut up.

Jorge should do something about this: there are M8 owners posting on the M8 forum!
Come on, where are the posts of M8 owners hammering the RD1 on the RD1 forum or ridiculing film on the rest of RFF (or even in the digital section, the worst remark I've seen is that some of us prefer digital but still like film as well )? At the very least we have put our money where our mouth is and yes, I think we do know what we are talking about.

 

[kbg32]

Jaap, here I sit, I can't even get the one I ordered way back when, and you have one, and ordered your second!

 

[Sailor Ted]

Jaap, here I sit, I can't even get the one I ordered way back when, and you have one, and ordered your second!

Perhaps you need a different dealer? Of perhaps you can purchase mine if I decide to sell later this month

 

[stevenrk]

>Originally Posted by Ken Tanaka
>Earlier you wrote:
>>Quote:
>>Originally Posted by jaapv
>>I hear you Jorge - there will always be a M3 in my case. However, I notice that in this thread, as in others, the negative feedback comes from non-owners. Surprisingly, I have yet to read a real negative report on the camera from anybody who has actually been using one for some time.

>Those were the remarks that precipitated my observation that you were suggesting that non-owners were throwing stones at owners. What other inference could be drawn from them?

>- Ken Tanaka -

That tells me that they are more prone to listen to the opinion of others (on the Internet) than make their own observations. I don't see that as a negativism. If you take it that way -sorry. Not intended.

That the positive feedback comes from owners and the negative from not-owners is an observation, and not a stone thrown. The inference that owners know more about the capabilities -and drawbacks- of the camera seems to me to be a logical and irrefutable one.

How funny that you would selectively edit your own words quoted by Ken, rather than just saying sorry about that. Your words that Ken quoted that led to his comment, and that you chose not to include, were:

"...using one for some time - only the rather impulsive "back into the box it goes" threads and "I read the internet and cancelled" type of thing. Maybe that tells us more about the posters than about the camera. Even the most vocal anti-M8 poster on this forum freely admits his problem is not with the camera but with Leica as a firm. Well- maybe - "I shoot for a living and it is not a type of camera I can use for my work" -fair enough"

I agree with Ken's view of your un-self-edited words. Just as your words -- both those you stand by and those you don't -- likely "tells us more about the posters than about the camera."

Steven

 

[jaapv]

How funny that you would selectively edit your own words quoted by Ken, rather than just saying sorry about that. Your words that Ken quoted that led to his comment, and that you chose not to include, were:

"...using one for some time - only the rather impulsive "back into the box it goes" threads and "I read the internet and cancelled" type of thing. Maybe that tells us more about the posters than about the camera. Even the most vocal anti-M8 poster on this forum freely admits his problem is not with the camera but with Leica as a firm. Well- maybe - "I shoot for a living and it is not a type of camera I can use for my work" -fair enough"

I agree with Ken's view of your un-self-edited words. Just as your words -- both those you stand by and those you don't -- likely "tells us more about the posters than about the camera."

Steven

Self-edited? I think I quoted Ken's post- and he is more than capable of speaking for himself.And excuse me, but what does this post add to a sensible discussion?

 

[ray_g]

That the positive feedback comes from owners and the negative from not-owners is an observation, and not a stone thrown. The inference that owners know more about the capabilities -and drawbacks- of the camera seems to me to be a logical and irrefutable one.

That is called BIAS, and is why (not to take anything away from your well-intentioned post, Jaap) reviews should be left to independent third parties.

 

[Athena]

I am confused by this entire thread.

It seems that everyone posting who has purchased a M8 now plans on purchasing a second one?

The actual number of such persons are few - but such a strategy will have the effect of doubling sales of the M8! At least for this "select group". This is a curious development - to say the least.

Since the reports I've heard are that this camera has many problems - isn't this strategy a bit like the gambler down on his luck deciding to "double or nothing"? I mean, why wouldn't a "first adopter" now wait for the problems to be resolved before buying a second camera?

Clearly, from a risk management standpoint - any wise current owner would wait for a resolution of the "issues" rather than do as the OP proposes.

Then again, perhaps the OP has a "not revealed agenda" for making such a grand pronouncement?

Hera always told me, burn me once,, shame on you; burn me twice, shame on me!!