Roger Hicks
Veteran
You could however argue that EVERYTHING is a by-product, not just gelatine and leather. This was brought home to me years ago when I took a friend who called himself a vegetarian out for a meal. He ordered liver and onions. I said, "I thought you were a vegetarian" and he replied "But no-one is going to kill a cow just for the liver." My reply was that they're not going to kill it just for the fillet steak, either.
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Lund
Established
True. But I do believe it is harder to argue that liver or a fillet steak being a byproduct, rather than some bones and odd bits of skin. Point taken though.
Rodchenko
Olympian
I agree pretty much with Lund. I want to try to minimise my adverse impact in the world. But I recognise I can't do everything. I'm a vegetarian, no longer a vegan since I got kids. I have chosen a career path based on not causing harm, which has made me significantly poorer financially than I could have been, but it's OK. It's my choice. I wear non-leather shoes, non-leather belts, and a non-leather biker jacket. My choice, and others are free to choose that or choose differently.
I wish I had the choice available of non-gelatin films, but the scale is such that there's probably no money in finding one, unless it turns out to be much cheaper (which is why so much cheese now uses vegetarian rennet; the turning point was not ethics, but profit, sadly). Similarly, in my other main hobby/lifestyle choice, cycling, animal products were used in the manufacture of tyres and inner tubes. I find that repellent, and I wish I had a choice, but, realistically, it isn't going to change significantly (unless it already has with advancing technology - I don't honestly know any more), or, at least, not for ethical considerations.
It's a bit sad that when some folk hear something challenging, they get ultra-defensive and start calling out vegans on the fallacy of perfection. I don't accept that, just because you can't be perfect and solve every problem that you just shouldn't try at all. We've all got something we can do. But hey, I make my choices. So do we all.
I wish I had the choice available of non-gelatin films, but the scale is such that there's probably no money in finding one, unless it turns out to be much cheaper (which is why so much cheese now uses vegetarian rennet; the turning point was not ethics, but profit, sadly). Similarly, in my other main hobby/lifestyle choice, cycling, animal products were used in the manufacture of tyres and inner tubes. I find that repellent, and I wish I had a choice, but, realistically, it isn't going to change significantly (unless it already has with advancing technology - I don't honestly know any more), or, at least, not for ethical considerations.
It's a bit sad that when some folk hear something challenging, they get ultra-defensive and start calling out vegans on the fallacy of perfection. I don't accept that, just because you can't be perfect and solve every problem that you just shouldn't try at all. We've all got something we can do. But hey, I make my choices. So do we all.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Harder, to the point of impossible. But it comes back to the point of where we draw our personal lines.
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Rodchenko
Olympian
Known for its portability, thanks, Roger. 
I know. Choices, innit.
I know. Choices, innit.
HHPhoto
Well-known
Thanks for that, Roger! You made my day!
Black British humor at its best.
Cheers, Jan
--s
Well-known
both of them, wiki-man!
tbhv55
Well-known
I fully agree. I've been vegetarian for over 20 years, and while I know that it's not going to solve the problems of animal mistreatment and suffering, I simply wanted to reduce my involvement in the whole industrialised animal farming process.
I don't preach to anyone about any of this - it's just a choice that I have made for myself. I do, however, get irritated when (and I'm not pointing a finger at anyone on here...
) others start making silly and/or aggressive comments about vegetarianism. I don't tell anyone that they're wrong to eat meat, and I certainly will not accept anyone telling me that I'm wrong in not eating it.thegman
Veteran
I could not agree more. I eat meat, in fact I'm a raging carnivore most of the time, but I admire vegetarianism. I admire that some people quite simply put animals before their own desire to have a tasty meal.
I don't eat foie gras, and I buy free range eggs, but I know I could be doing a lot more, but I don't, and that's my failing.
I'm not vegetarian, but am impressed by those who are.
Rodchenko
Olympian
Exactly, thegman. Choices. And, tbhy55, i think you distilled it better than I did.
tbhv55
Well-known
Good comments, and I really appreciate your stance on this - but could I just point out that a vegetarian meal can actually be "tasty" too!
tbhv55
Well-known
Rodchenko
Olympian
That's a whole other subject!
tbhv55
Well-known
thegman
Veteran
Good comments, and I really appreciate your stance on this - but could I just point out that a vegetarian meal can actually be "tasty" too!
Yes, you're quite right, I've enjoyed vegetarian meals sometimes, especially if we're permitting cheese.
flip
良かったね！
I understand the expressed POV, but one could as easily argue that it exists in a vacuum that ignores the ecological consequences of our current diet. Taken to the logical conclusion, a non-meat diet is arguably more sustainable and therefore more conducive to the continuation of the species. OP aside, the motivation for such a lifestyle need not be ethics (unless species self-preservation falls in that category).
It's rather moot considering that humans are just a blink in the wind. Whatever gets you through the night!
sepiareverb
genius and moron
But that's just it isn't it? Far too many people (like the OP's carpool-mate) are convinced that you or I need to change to match their beliefs and are vocal about it. I would never presume to tell you that since I eschew religion you really should also. Yet so many times in this world the exact opposite is the case - be it religion, sexuality, tobacco or food. There may be a very few things we can collectively agree on as benefitting society as a whole, but certainly this should not trickle down to choices of shoe or bedmate or solace.
There is plenty of evidence to the contrary, that meat is rather necessary to sustained good health, and that the move away from animal-based fats is the main cause of much of the modern disease ravaging the west. Another entire thread there however.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
An ecosystem is not an intellectual construct; or at least, it has not been so until very, very recently. This is obviously a very contentious field, and I do not necessarily espouse the sentiment expressed at the beginning of this paragraph. It is just that to deny it is foolish. Of course, you have not denied it, as witness your opening sentence, but there may be others reading this who are less intellectually honest.I understand the expressed POV, but one could as easily argue that it exists in a vacuum that ignores the ecological consequences of our current diet. Taken to the logical conclusion, a non-meat diet is arguably more sustainable and therefore more conducive to the continuation of the species. OP aside, the motivation for such a lifestyle need not be ethics (unless species self-preservation falls in that category).
It's rather moot considering that humans are just a blink in the wind. Whatever gets you through the night!
Cheers,
R.