Borge H
Established
I am a long time user of Leica, since back in 1969. In recent years I have bought a M9 and two new lenses (50/2 and 28/2.8) from Leica. The M9 works still fine (knock on wood!) but both lenses have had issues.
The 28/2.8 had a loose part in front out of box, that part holding the shade. I called directly the company I bought it from in Germany (Meister camera) and returned the lens and got new perfect lens from them!
The 50/2 had a similar fault after a while, the UV-filter I use on the lens became loose as the front part of the lens with shade could be rotated. This happens after about one year. I contacted at first the local sales company for Leica, they say send it in and we will look at it. But after some thoughts (and looking here and at Leica forum) I contacted directly Leica in Germany by e-mail. I tried to write in both English and in German (neither is my own language) and added a close-up photo of the lens with the fault.
I got quickly a nice reply e-mail from a German lady at Leica customer care with instructions how to send in the lens and a special form to fill in. They would repair the lens without cost!
I sent in the lens to Leica and got it back adjusted and repaired after, if I remember correctly, less than two weeks.
My thoughts after this is that the best way to get your lens quickly repaired is to contact Leica directly in Germany. You reduce the time the lens is away from you. It takes time for the extra transport to the dealer. German people usually have holidays in August, so then it could be extra delays.
Perhaps is the Leica lenses more sensitive now than back in 1968 or 1975. Is the design smaller and more fragile? Or am I too brutal? I am little surprised that two out of two new lenses had faults with in the first year. But I guess they will use better glues in the future...
But Leica as a company is not evasive and deals with this issues in a way that is OK for me. Their promise to fix the sensor in my M9 if it ever degrades makes me planning to buy a new Leica.
I have Japanese car (Toyota) which even leaked gearbox oil new from the dealer. Now some years later everything rusts under the car. Do you think Toyota will fix my car, like Leica will fix my M9? My next car will be a Volkswagen (It will be delivered in October!
)!
The 28/2.8 had a loose part in front out of box, that part holding the shade. I called directly the company I bought it from in Germany (Meister camera) and returned the lens and got new perfect lens from them!
The 50/2 had a similar fault after a while, the UV-filter I use on the lens became loose as the front part of the lens with shade could be rotated. This happens after about one year. I contacted at first the local sales company for Leica, they say send it in and we will look at it. But after some thoughts (and looking here and at Leica forum) I contacted directly Leica in Germany by e-mail. I tried to write in both English and in German (neither is my own language) and added a close-up photo of the lens with the fault.
I got quickly a nice reply e-mail from a German lady at Leica customer care with instructions how to send in the lens and a special form to fill in. They would repair the lens without cost!
I sent in the lens to Leica and got it back adjusted and repaired after, if I remember correctly, less than two weeks.
My thoughts after this is that the best way to get your lens quickly repaired is to contact Leica directly in Germany. You reduce the time the lens is away from you. It takes time for the extra transport to the dealer. German people usually have holidays in August, so then it could be extra delays.
Perhaps is the Leica lenses more sensitive now than back in 1968 or 1975. Is the design smaller and more fragile? Or am I too brutal? I am little surprised that two out of two new lenses had faults with in the first year. But I guess they will use better glues in the future...
But Leica as a company is not evasive and deals with this issues in a way that is OK for me. Their promise to fix the sensor in my M9 if it ever degrades makes me planning to buy a new Leica.
I have Japanese car (Toyota) which even leaked gearbox oil new from the dealer. Now some years later everything rusts under the car. Do you think Toyota will fix my car, like Leica will fix my M9? My next car will be a Volkswagen (It will be delivered in October!
)!sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Who does refurbish what? Refurbished products are not advertised by Leica themselves, nor do German Leica shops seem to offer anything like it - is it a US specific thing? Or is that grey/black market?
krötenblender
Well-known
It's Leica. You should be grateful, that they allowed you to purchase one of their precious items. Ungrateful customers they are...
Without joke: Service in Germany is not a well-established concept. This is not Leica-specific, it's just typical German behavior. OTOH, if it works, then it is really perfect. But if it doesn't, it is clearly your fault. Thus the "repair" instead of simply taking it back and give you a replacement at the same moment.
Without joke: Service in Germany is not a well-established concept. This is not Leica-specific, it's just typical German behavior. OTOH, if it works, then it is really perfect. But if it doesn't, it is clearly your fault. Thus the "repair" instead of simply taking it back and give you a replacement at the same moment.
x-ray
Veteran
I wound up selling my M9 and all but one of my new lenses because of poor reliability and long repair times. All of my gear with the exception of one lens were under warranty. Four trips back to NJ in a year and s half at an average of 7 weeks per trip for warranty service. The shipping cost insured came to over $500 that came out of my pocket too.
My 90apo asph went back four times and the M9 3 with the lens for focus issues. Finally I had to threaten the service manager. I td NJ that I was going to put a website up dedicated to telling the world about the terrible service Leica has if they didn't get my lens fixed. Finally they replaced it which solved the problem.
I mentioned NPS and got no response. I'm a working professional and been an NPS member for about 30 years. Fabulous service and free to working pros. Canon CPS is good too I understand. If leica wants any part of the pro market they'll have to improve quality and put in place a NPS type service group. Quality is the main improvement though.
chaospress
Established
I didn't end up sending my camera to them, but was told over the phone from Leica they would provide a shipping label if I chose to send it in to be checked out. I assumed (maybe incorrectly?) that meant they were providing paid shipment.
They also assured me the camera's issues would indeed be fixed when I suggested I might just return to the dealer, because the "tolerances" they had set up in their shop in New Jersey were even more strict than those at the point of manufacture. I have no idea if this is true or not- maybe it is, but it sounded odd.
newsgrunt
Well-known
I believe the local dealer level understands this and reps have made loaners available to me for evaluation so I presume it's head office that doesn't care about us. Working stiffs are a low number market compared to the enthusiast with $$ so thus goes their road map.
It's one of several reasons why I haven't plunked down the coin for the M-P, even with a pro break. ymmv
x-ray
Veteran
Leica NJ never offered to cover any shipping cost to NJ on my warranty service.
28 weeks was just too long for anyone whether pro or amateur. The disturbing thing is equipment of this supposed level of quality should never have had to have service this soon anyway. My M9 required service shortly after I bought it new. The sensor and mother board had to be replaced bus to varying colors across the frame. It produced magenta patches in different places in the image.
I told the service manager in NJ that I had used Leica professionally since 1968 and Leica had forgotten about the pro users. I stated that Leica had reached a new low in quality and service. I told them about the exceptional service that Nikon has and how they support the pro user. This is very important to those of us ho depend on our equipment to make a living. Not only does Nikon have 5 day turnaround (used to be 24 hours in the film days) but they have free loans of lenses and bodies. You simply pay fedex up to and from. They provide loans whe your equipment is in for repairs at no cost and if you need a lense one or two times for a special project then it's provided free. You just pay fedex. This loan service is limited so people don't borrow long term rather than buy. Also at special events like the Kentucky Derby, the bring in trucks with service techs to do on the spot repairs for NPS members covering the event in case there are any issues with cameras or lenses. If they are unable to repair it on the spot they will loan you a lens or body at no charge.
Nikon is a company that cares about the pro user unlike Leica that relies on past reputation. This is one of the big reasons I abandon Leica and Use Nikon in my work and one of the big reasons most of rest of the pro marked has done the same.
In my conversation with NJ I informed them I will never buy another piece of new Leica gear due to a the problems and slow service. They have lost a once loyal customer.
28 weeks was just too long for anyone whether pro or amateur. The disturbing thing is equipment of this supposed level of quality should never have had to have service this soon anyway. My M9 required service shortly after I bought it new. The sensor and mother board had to be replaced bus to varying colors across the frame. It produced magenta patches in different places in the image.
I told the service manager in NJ that I had used Leica professionally since 1968 and Leica had forgotten about the pro users. I stated that Leica had reached a new low in quality and service. I told them about the exceptional service that Nikon has and how they support the pro user. This is very important to those of us ho depend on our equipment to make a living. Not only does Nikon have 5 day turnaround (used to be 24 hours in the film days) but they have free loans of lenses and bodies. You simply pay fedex up to and from. They provide loans whe your equipment is in for repairs at no cost and if you need a lense one or two times for a special project then it's provided free. You just pay fedex. This loan service is limited so people don't borrow long term rather than buy. Also at special events like the Kentucky Derby, the bring in trucks with service techs to do on the spot repairs for NPS members covering the event in case there are any issues with cameras or lenses. If they are unable to repair it on the spot they will loan you a lens or body at no charge.
Nikon is a company that cares about the pro user unlike Leica that relies on past reputation. This is one of the big reasons I abandon Leica and Use Nikon in my work and one of the big reasons most of rest of the pro marked has done the same.
In my conversation with NJ I informed them I will never buy another piece of new Leica gear due to a the problems and slow service. They have lost a once loyal customer.
:: Mark
Well-known
Actually, I am a CPS member. If Canon can not effect a repair within 3 days, they provide a loan replacement until the repair is complete.
If you buy enough from Canon, this level of service is free. Is there corresponding level of service and support from Leica?
If I spend 7000€ on a digital body, I would not expect to be left waiting months for a repair, particularly if the repairs are the result of Leica engineering deficiencies (cracked and corroding sensors, for example)...
Addy101
Well-known
Even for CPS members Canon isn't flawless: http://bgpictures.com/2013/08/12/my-experience-with-canon-lens-repair-services/.
Leica is no different from other makers it seems, though it also seems these stories usually are from the States....
Leica is no different from other makers it seems, though it also seems these stories usually are from the States....
btgc
Veteran
Do you think Toyota will fix my car, like Leica will fix my M9? My next car will be a Volkswagen (It will be delivered in October!
I really hope current Volkses have same strength they used to have!
x-ray
Veteran
The difference is Canon has very few repair issues like this and turned the camera around in two days. This is what professional service should be. Leica is consistently having repair problems and a large number of the CCD cameras have required lengthy service one or more times. In my case it was 4 times for the same problem for a total of about 28 weeks. leica offers no professional priority repair.
This example was hardly on the same level as leicas problems.
Dektol Dan
Well-known
Don't Get Me Stated On Nikon Service!
Don't Get Me Stated On Nikon Service!
A fine fine rosey picture of Nikon has been painted here. Ever try getting service on something they have declared 'obsolete'?
I bought my Nikon 9000ED a year or so Nikon discontinued that and Nikon left me hanging, even for the most wear prone common parts like film trays. Nikon can go to bloody hell!
I have collected some 40+ cameras and scanners over my mostly non professional life time (I don't count teaching photography in college as 'professional' because I could still choose which subjects I chose to shoot), and Leica, and especially Canon, has served me very well. But, please remember that when fixing used gear off warranty it is best to go established independent repair folks.
I love my 13 year old Olympus OM cameras, but finding repair and parts is impossible.
However, I have a '52 IIIc and IIIf Leica and have had no problem having both of them rebuilt cheaply. I'll stick with Leica thank you. Try that with your 60's to 80's era Nikons!
Don't Get Me Stated On Nikon Service!
A fine fine rosey picture of Nikon has been painted here. Ever try getting service on something they have declared 'obsolete'?
I bought my Nikon 9000ED a year or so Nikon discontinued that and Nikon left me hanging, even for the most wear prone common parts like film trays. Nikon can go to bloody hell!
I have collected some 40+ cameras and scanners over my mostly non professional life time (I don't count teaching photography in college as 'professional' because I could still choose which subjects I chose to shoot), and Leica, and especially Canon, has served me very well. But, please remember that when fixing used gear off warranty it is best to go established independent repair folks.
I love my 13 year old Olympus OM cameras, but finding repair and parts is impossible.
However, I have a '52 IIIc and IIIf Leica and have had no problem having both of them rebuilt cheaply. I'll stick with Leica thank you. Try that with your 60's to 80's era Nikons!
thompsonks
Well-known
I sympathize with all the stories of repair delays, though I've had pretty good luck myself – perhaps because my dealer knows which levers to pull in NJ.
My service issue has been so many problems that needed fixing in the first place. I've had a film camera with a faulty pressure plate, lenses with rattly aperture blades, loose aperture rings, loose shutter assemblies, second trips back for lens adjustment, etc.
IMO the initial cost of Leica goods should be justified (at least in part) by rapid turn-around service, with a period in the shop of no more than a week in either US or Germany. That's what I experienced from Canon, using their digital bodies before digital Leicas appeared.
I can't figure out what Leica gains by poor customer service. I understand there must be peaks and troughs in service requests – they perhaps have spates of high-volume service requests when sales run high for new model releases, and perhaps they don't want to train and support more than a minimum number of service technicians during the periods of less activity. But it doesn't take much managerial sense to see that with a whole fabric of threads like this one about service delays, poor service is defeating customer good will.
Kirk
My service issue has been so many problems that needed fixing in the first place. I've had a film camera with a faulty pressure plate, lenses with rattly aperture blades, loose aperture rings, loose shutter assemblies, second trips back for lens adjustment, etc.
IMO the initial cost of Leica goods should be justified (at least in part) by rapid turn-around service, with a period in the shop of no more than a week in either US or Germany. That's what I experienced from Canon, using their digital bodies before digital Leicas appeared.
I can't figure out what Leica gains by poor customer service. I understand there must be peaks and troughs in service requests – they perhaps have spates of high-volume service requests when sales run high for new model releases, and perhaps they don't want to train and support more than a minimum number of service technicians during the periods of less activity. But it doesn't take much managerial sense to see that with a whole fabric of threads like this one about service delays, poor service is defeating customer good will.
Kirk
Addy101
Well-known
Don't wanna be a Leica fanboy, as I own none
Don't wanna be Canon basher, as I own several
Canon did have its share of problems, on the top of my head the sample variation of the EF 24-70/2.8L mark I and the AF of the EOS 1D mark III.
Usually the shop would replace the lens for you if it was out of whack and they would deal with Canon. But it seems some people don't expect that kind of service if they buy a Leica lens.....
Also, Canon doesn't touch discontinued lenses, not even for a CLA, not even for CPS members.
28 weeks turn-around for four visits isn't that bad, the turn-around in Europe seems to be at least six weeks and it has to go from the States to Germany - seven weeks each time sounds about right.
Not saying Leica is flawless, just saying that all companies have their problems with customer service :angel:
judsonzhao
Well-known
This is ridiculous. If you bought the lens new, this is definitely unacceptable. And this is not faulty of lens under warranty cover, it's simply not able to be considered a quanlified new product. You should request an exchange, not anyvkind of delayed repair.
Even you buy pre-owned, if the lens is differed so much from its original description, a change is necessary and mandatory.
Even you buy pre-owned, if the lens is differed so much from its original description, a change is necessary and mandatory.
V-12
Well-known
Ha ha, it's a service for dentists
It is a moot point though, and yes Leica do have an express service, but why should somebody with more money to throw at the problem get better service than anybody else? I could appreciate the difference if this 'service' was to speed maintenance and repair (CLA) types of work, but it shouldn't be possible to trample over the waiting list for basic warranty work, goods that should have worked from day one.
V
x-ray
Veteran
There are plenty of service companies that work on every generation and model of mechanical Nikon. Electronic might be another issue because parts have dried up but that's the case with any company. Do you think Leica will be repairing M8's in 50 years? It's my understanding the LCD is no longer available. M9's in 50 years? I don't imagine any of the digital cameras will be repairable in 15 to 20 years.
How long had the 9000 been out of production. I bought a nearly $50k fuji Lanovia Quattro scanner that the moment they discontinued it they terminated the two techs that worked on them and and discontinued all parts and service. This happened about 4 or 5 years ago. They left several thousand customers that bought super expensive scanners hanging out to dry. Kodak did the same with their pro digital back and slr's, the 14N is one.
Back to Nikon, Nikon will still repair F's, F2's and later if parts are available. I spoke to them when I renewed my NPS membership and they said they do repair them but it takes longer than the 5 business days of current equipment if parts are available.
x-ray
Veteran
Don't wanna be a Leica fanboy, as I own none
Don't wanna be Canon basher, as I own several
Canon did have its share of problems, on the top of my head the sample variation of the EF 24-70/2.8L mark I and the AF of the EOS 1D mark III.
Usually the shop would replace the lens for you if it was out of whack and they would deal with Canon. But it seems some people don't expect that kind of service if they buy a Leica lens.....
Also, Canon doesn't touch discontinued lenses, not even for a CLA, not even for CPS members.
28 weeks turn-around for four visits isn't that bad, the turn-around in Europe seems to be at least six weeks and it has to go from the States to Germany - seven weeks each time sounds about right.
Not saying Leica is flawless, just saying that all companies have their problems with customer service :angel:
I used Nikon mechanical cameras since the late 60's and went Nikon digital when the D1 came out. Sure it had it's issues but the technology was new. The technology isn't new now however and the issues Nikon, Kodak and Canon had in the early days shouldn't happen now. At least Nikon and Canon didn't take months to get their pros back in business.
I went from the Nikon D1x to the Canon 1D and 1Ds when they came out. I do a lot of product and architectural work and needed the tilt shift lenses. My first 24-70 L series I came apart the second day I had it. The front and back totally separated. I called my dealer that they shipped a new one out that day express mail. Never another issue. The only time my lenses and camera were in the shop was to set back focus. In those days they had to go the the service center for that adjustment. I later went to 1DsII's and never had an issue in eight years.
I understand what you mean about not servicing out of date lenses. I had a 200 f1.8 L the fortunately never had any issues. It was probably the best lens I've ever used for the 35mm format, Leica included. Even with a 1.4x extender it was better than my 300 f2.8L which was a fantastic lens. Canon makes superb cameras and glass as does Nikon. I'm all Nikon digital now using a D800 and Df along with ED glass and primes for the DF. I found the 14.5 stops dynamic range of the D800 to be a significant advantage for interior architectural work.
7 weeks of waiting might be OK for a Leica enthusiast but not for those of us that make a living with our equipment. The failure rate and repair times are just unacceptable.
chaospress
Established
I do kind of wonder why people who have moved on from Leica to Nikon or Canon would spend time hanging out on a digital Leica forum, unless the experience with Leica was so bad they can't shake it off.
It doesn't really matter to me what kind of service other companies have, because although they make a good product, they don't make the camera I prefer to use.
It doesn't really matter to me what kind of service other companies have, because although they make a good product, they don't make the camera I prefer to use.
uhoh7
Veteran
Exactly. I would demand a full refund and find a nice clean used one for 2800. I would check it closely and return if there is any problem. If I did need work; DAG.
I will only let Leica deal with stuff like a shutter or new sensor. For glass I would never let them see a lens of mine. Too many bad stories. I'm sure they are often quite competent, but it's a real risk.