A weird M6 film unloading/loading issue

[alexz]

The preface quesion:
In regard of using standard commercial 36-frames roll (say, Kodak Profoto 400BW) - what does mean trying to use the last 1-2 spare frames ? I.e. once reaching frame 36 (according to the counter), I advanced to the next one (37) - apparently went OK (at least the crank didn't stack), shot, the advanced to the enxt one (38) - went OK either, shot...what should I expect ? How should I know I reached the last frame indeed ? Can I expect the film advance crank will stack trying to advance after the supposedly last frame on the roll has been shot ? Can I cause a camera damage trying to squeeze another 1-2 frames out of regular 36-roll ?

Now to the issue:
Today finished Kodak Profoto 400BW roll (regular 36 frames one), then made an endeavor to rewind the film by usual procedure - (rewind lever to R, then unfolding the rewind crank and turning it clockwise according to the arrow direction). After about one or one and half revolutions it got completely stack, even applying some moderate force did not help. Several attempts to release it and turn around failed.
Finally I broke up, set up my film changing tent (I use one for 4x5 holders loading), opened up the camera. The film felt OK in the shutter window, however I do not remember feeling the bulk of the film wound around the take-up spool. I played up gently trying to release the film on the side ot the take-up spool, then made a half revolution of spool of the film canister to check film's movement - it did. The canister remained inside the film chamber on its place. Closed up the camera, took it out of the changing tent and tryed the ordinary film rewinding procedure - after some very short tension turning the rewiding crank, it begun revolving more freely so I felt there is unlikely film left of the take-up spool. Opened the camera - 😱 the film turned out to be rewound completely inside the canister ! - this bearing in mind that it took probably 5-6 rewinding crank revolutions...
That lead me to the conclusion that originally, loading the film few days ago it was unlikely caught up by the take-up spool, i.e. somehow it appears I failed to load it properly, even though I remember letting the leader between the posts...
Which means I have some presumably very desirable images of my family that went to the dust due to my stupidity...:bang:
However that did not reveal the reason why the rewining cracnk has stack then...weird...

Now, decided to give another try to that Kodak film - picked another Profoto 400BW roll and loaded one paying attention to the procedure. Guess what ?
Closing the camera and advancing the film towards 0 on the counter (presumably two frames) - the first one was fine - advanced and shot, Now advancing to the second one (towasrd -1 on the counter) - the advance crank has stack in the middle and couldn't finish the operation. Tried rewinding operation, was able to made about half revolution then it stack up also. Had no choice but open up the camera - the leader appears to be inside the posts of the take-up spool but no film wound around the spool (perhaps I pulled it back to the canister while trying to rewind it slightly). Made another endeavor - loaded it up, closed, first advance was OK, the second caused similar problem. Well, once again opened up, now took the film out and discovered a broken perforation hole at the upper part of the camera. The tiny film part of the broken perforation just above the hole almost got into the shutter, i.e. at the edge of the shutter curtain and its frame. I suspect this is what caused the film advance operation (and subsequent rewidning attempt) to stack up deadly. The question is what caused to the perforation issue...was it by the camera somehow or probably a bad roll of the film ? Go figure....
Anyway, reloaded the camera with Fuji Sensia - went OK, now on my 25th frame, hope it is fine inside...

Any experiences with similar issues ? What may cause such kind of issues ?
Any thoughts ?

Thanks in advance, Alex

 

[markinlondon]

I've only seen torn perforations once, it was a roll of FP4+ in a Bessa R and I spent a jolly evening picking bits out of the shutter. Are you lining up the film in the gate when loading? I always loaded my M6 by pulling the leader out until it was in the "tulip" as per the diagram and then a gentle push "down" on the film until it sat between the bright rails. Fire two frames and take the slack. I never had a misload or advance/rewind problems in over three years of using this method. I never had to check the sprockets were engaging either.

 

[SolaresLarrave]

I shivered when I loaded my cameras for about two months. It was always an adventure! 😱 I came to hate the system because I never took the time to learn how simple it really is.

Just take a roll of film you're willing to sacrifice, pull the leader out long enough to reach the tulip in the film take-up spool. When you place the film in the chamber, make sure the leader goes well in between the tulip's prongs and, as Mark said above, give it a gentle push to ensure the film goes in between the two bright lines (one above and the other below) by the shutter curtains. Also make sure the film engages with the sprocket wheel, because the key is, precisely, that the spool doesn't pull the film. In fact, the sprocket wheel pushes the film into the take-up spool.

Once you made sure the film is engaged and the leader is in between the prongs, close the camera and advance a couple of frames. Turn the rewind crank just a bit, to take the film slack, and advance another frame. If the rewind crank moves, you have loaded the camera succesfully. If it doesn't, turn the crank again until you find resistance, advance the film again and every thing should work fine.

Just practice loading with a sacrificial roll. Like you load it, close the camera, advance it and if you see the rewind move, open it to make sure it worked fine. In fact, play with the camera and the film. Make sure you see the whole thing in motion. You'll never misload again afterwards. 🙂

Whatever you do, just DO NOT KINK or FOLD the film leader when you insert it in the camera. It's a "solution" that may cause further problems when you rewind the film, because the folded tip may damage the shutter curtains.

Good luck! 😀

 

[Xmas]

See

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36042

With any 35mm camera you always have to check that the rewind knob is turning, at the beginning and eack time you wind, otherwise you get a blank film from as soon as you stop checking if the sprokets tear. (Except with the kiev/contax type of cameras that don't use the sprockets as a tractor, and similar variations, e.g. the contax g series.)

Noel

 

[x-ray]

The simple way to be certain you have the camera loaded is to place the film with the leader between the three prongs as described above and then make certain the film is in place in the film gate and then advance the film watching it take up on the spool then release the shutter and do it again. I have done this since my first M4 in 1971 and have shot 10,000 plus rolls with never a lost frame. Simply placing the film in the takeup spool fingers and closing the back will eventually cause a problem.

NEVER force the wind or rewind! You will damage the camera.

 

[Topdog1]

Now you know one of the reasons people like digital cameras.

/Ira

 

[alexz]

Thank you guys, sounds clear indeed. Funny thing - the first 2 rolls went fine from the first attempt, I even found the whole procedure a joy. It was the third one I screwed up. At least, the torn roll will serve the the dummy one to excercise as you advised..😉, will cut away the leading part with tron perforation and cut the artificial "leader" to simulate the new roll of film.

Ira, frankly can't see it to be the reason of digital sway, rather another reason to bright up my skills....😀

 

[maddoc]

I ruined the first film in my M6, a 24 frames Fuji Neopan 400 Presto ....:bang: It was inside the tulip but not properly aligned between the lines and to the transporting wheel. Since that I always check alignment and the rewind-crack after loading and had no more problems, even with a partially broken film at minus 10 degrees.

 

[alexz]

Well, excersising myself now for film loading it seems to be clear now, just like all the advised above. However, I just noticed advancing film the rewinng crank is also turning which may be fair but perviously I did not notice it turning with film advancing operation. I thought the R lever once being up disengages the rewing crank from the film advance mechanism so it will not be turning while advancing the film. I might be wrong though. So, shall I expect the rewindg crank turning around when advancing the film to the next frame ? Is this normal ?

Also, I noticed the rewindg crack seems to rewindg the film if operated regardless of R lever, i.e. the lever might be up (in vertical position) but the rewind, if operated will do the job. The manual says in order to rewding one has to switch the R lever to the left (which I did faithfully for rewind usually). Am I confused ? What does exactly the R lever ?

Thanks, ALex

 

[markinlondon]

Alex, the rewind crank should turn as you advance the film. This lets you know that the film is being pulled through the camera. You usually need a turn or two on the rewind crank when you load to take up the slack in the cassette. This only works until the film is taut, you shouldn't be able to rewind without the rewind lever engaged, it disengages the sprockets so that the film is free to rewind. Rewinding should require no force, everything should feel as if it is moving freely.

 

[alexz]

Oh, Mark, thanks, I just figured that myself a minute ago right after posted my rush response. Yes, now that I excersised myself a bit - it is much clearer - the rewind crank indeed turns each advance, but it will turn towasrd rewinding direction without R lever engaged only the length of film slack and then is stacked until I engage the R lever to teh left which is exactly how it should work ! 😀
I'm happy I figured the only artifact was me and not the camera - just proves that the only one who takes the full responsibility is the person behind the viewfinder and not the camera...😉

Thanks ocne again, Alex