Lauffray
Invisible Cities
A couple of months ago I agreed to shoot a friend's wedding (2 days) and make a book of the pictures after, but we didn't agree on a price (not out of disagreement, we just never discussed it, however he stated clearly that he intends to pay me)
The book is well under way and now I'm thinking about what to ask for compensation, the trouble being of course that I'm dealing with friends and I feel uncomfortable asking for money.
Here are the facts.
- I'm not a professional photographer, I don't shoot weddings, but I'm quite pleased with the results and they are really excited about the pictures, they're technically good, and fit both my usual style and his requirement.
- I don't really have operating expenses, because he already paid for the film to be developed and professionally scanned. I used my own (paid for) equipment
- A little research into going rates for wedding photography and my usual design hourly rate suggest the whole deal come down to a few thousand dollars which to me seems like a lot to ask. Should I "discount" the work because I'm working with friends ?
- I shot the whole wedding myself, no assistants, and I'm doing the book alone, design, setting everything, on my own equipment, no assistants.
I'm not suggesting I do it for free, especially since the book is taking a lot of work, but I'm having trouble finding a price that seems fair to both of us. I didn't know what to suggest at the beginning because I've never offered this type of "package" deal to anyone before.
Of course there's the good old "what do you think it's worth" trick, but that's not really professional I find
Suggestions ?
The book is well under way and now I'm thinking about what to ask for compensation, the trouble being of course that I'm dealing with friends and I feel uncomfortable asking for money.
Here are the facts.
- I'm not a professional photographer, I don't shoot weddings, but I'm quite pleased with the results and they are really excited about the pictures, they're technically good, and fit both my usual style and his requirement.
- I don't really have operating expenses, because he already paid for the film to be developed and professionally scanned. I used my own (paid for) equipment
- A little research into going rates for wedding photography and my usual design hourly rate suggest the whole deal come down to a few thousand dollars which to me seems like a lot to ask. Should I "discount" the work because I'm working with friends ?
- I shot the whole wedding myself, no assistants, and I'm doing the book alone, design, setting everything, on my own equipment, no assistants.
I'm not suggesting I do it for free, especially since the book is taking a lot of work, but I'm having trouble finding a price that seems fair to both of us. I didn't know what to suggest at the beginning because I've never offered this type of "package" deal to anyone before.
Of course there's the good old "what do you think it's worth" trick, but that's not really professional I find
Suggestions ?
sunghei
Member
I shot a quite a few wedding and I shoot a friend's wedding this summer. I think that the best thing to do is find out the market price in the area and do about half of that. The book will cost a lot if you go to a proper printer (starting at $400+ for a 10 spread). or you can give yourself a starting hour rate (i would start at $50) and figure out the coverage hours + editing hours.
Out to Lunch
Ventor
I don't quite get it. You are not a professional photographer, nor a wedding photographer and yet you refer to 'going rates for wedding photography' and 'my usual design hourly rate'. My two cents: if and when you agreed to shoot the wedding and create a book, and not agreed on a price...well, then the burden is on you to get this done for whatever your friend believes is a reasonable price.
Lauffray
Invisible Cities
The going rate is the rate for my area for this type of deal, my usual design rate is my hourly design rate (which is what I do for a living, even though book design is a little outside my comfort zone)
helvetica
Well-known
As someone coming from years of experience at a design agency, this is a difficult situation. At it's core, you have a problem of unmanaged expectations.
My most bitter encounters are when I overestimated my client's willingness to have something done - I put more time and effort into it than they where willing to pay for. On the other hand, I've had a few clients that have said "you put more work into it than we expected, thank you and make sure you bill accordingly". Obviously this is rare! If your situation turn out more like the first, then you have a lot at risk with your friendship and your morale.
My suggestion would be to sooner than later say something to the degree of "Hey, everything is looking wonderful - but it is taking more time and effort than expected. Lets talk about what we have and our options to go forward. I think you will be very pleased with what we could do."
If you continue on and surprise your friend with a large bill and no understanding of what is going into it, you are not being fair to them or to yourself.
- How much the client (your friend) expects to pay
- How much work you expected to take
- Your expectations for the appreciation and compensation of your talent and effort
- Your assumption of the client's interest of how much to invest
My most bitter encounters are when I overestimated my client's willingness to have something done - I put more time and effort into it than they where willing to pay for. On the other hand, I've had a few clients that have said "you put more work into it than we expected, thank you and make sure you bill accordingly". Obviously this is rare! If your situation turn out more like the first, then you have a lot at risk with your friendship and your morale.
My suggestion would be to sooner than later say something to the degree of "Hey, everything is looking wonderful - but it is taking more time and effort than expected. Lets talk about what we have and our options to go forward. I think you will be very pleased with what we could do."
If you continue on and surprise your friend with a large bill and no understanding of what is going into it, you are not being fair to them or to yourself.
sojournerphoto
Veteran
If they're friends do it for free, and ask them to meet the costs of print - or give it as a gift.
Too late to agree a price that will make you both happy now and friendships are worth more
Mike
Too late to agree a price that will make you both happy now and friendships are worth more
Mike
Lauffray
Invisible Cities
hahaha that's awesome, maybe I do have a bit of Brit in me who knows
daveleo
what?
Bring up the topic of costs very soon to discuss with your friend.
(This could be a real test of your frienship - esp when his (her?) new spouse jumps in with "But I thought the pictures would be free! Isn't he your friend? Tell him we don't have the money.")
I agree with above - charge them your printing, packaging, handling costs but give them a very deep discount on your personal time. Actually I'd bring this up before actually incuring any real cash outlay on your part.
(This could be a real test of your frienship - esp when his (her?) new spouse jumps in with "But I thought the pictures would be free! Isn't he your friend? Tell him we don't have the money.")
I agree with above - charge them your printing, packaging, handling costs but give them a very deep discount on your personal time. Actually I'd bring this up before actually incuring any real cash outlay on your part.
icebear
Veteran
I am not sure about your definition of "friend" but I would not my friend for taking pictures at his wedding, for a friend this is for free as a wedding gift. If he and his newly wed bride will invite me for dinner that's welcome but I would never present a bill (or ask for money).
uhoh7
Veteran
1400usd paid over time if need be.
Give him the "co-rights' to all images.
A total steal for him.
Give him the "co-rights' to all images.
A total steal for him.
daveleo
what?
PS If the situation gets ugly, give him a CD of the digital files and have him print his own pictures and books.
I really hope you meant it when you said " . . . he stated clearly that he intends to pay me". And I hope that he remembers saying it
I really hope you meant it when you said " . . . he stated clearly that he intends to pay me". And I hope that he remembers saying it
Lauffray
Invisible Cities
Thanks for the ideas guys. I don't think the situation will get that tense, strictly speaking even if he doesn't pay I haven't incurred costs because my computer, gear (my own) and film processing were all already paid for. He has stated that he intends to pay me, I won't charge for the wedding but frankly the book is taking a lot of time, so I might ask something just for my time.
I gave him an idea of the industry rates and asked what his budget for the book was, he needs to consult his wife (of course) so we'll see how it goes. They're both honest people, but asking money from friends is always awkward (at least for the conflict-avoiding-introvert in me)
I gave him an idea of the industry rates and asked what his budget for the book was, he needs to consult his wife (of course
) so we'll see how it goes. They're both honest people, but asking money from friends is always awkward (at least for the conflict-avoiding-introvert in me)
Vince Lupo
Whatever
What about a 'payment in kind' for your efforts, such as a nice dinner that you can all enjoy? Then there is a 'payment', but not one that directly involves cash.
Not that this can compare to shooting an entire wedding, but I recently did some corporate portraits for a friend of mine at no charge (my insistence), and what does he do but show up with a beautifully prepared dinner with an expensive bottle of wine!
Not that this can compare to shooting an entire wedding, but I recently did some corporate portraits for a friend of mine at no charge (my insistence), and what does he do but show up with a beautifully prepared dinner with an expensive bottle of wine!
Thardy
Veteran
I'd do it (have done it) for free as a gift. It goes a long way towards the friendship.
Matthew Runkel
Well-known
One approach would be to come up with reason to broach the subject of cost that has to do with choices you need to make about production of the book. Do this in a way that makes it clear you will be passing on the vendor fees for the book at cost. At the tail end of the same conversation/email, say something like "We also still need to decide on my fee for the photography, editing and book-design work. I have X hours in the project to date and estimate the total will be Y hours once your book is put to bed in [TIMEFRAME. Please let me know what you think is fair."
Then I think you should accept whatever amount your friend comes up with, without pushing back. He may surprise you with his reasonableness/generosity. If he does come in lower than you'd like, consider it a lesson about the importance of agreeing to a price in advance, and finish up you work quickly but professionally.
Then I think you should accept whatever amount your friend comes up with, without pushing back. He may surprise you with his reasonableness/generosity. If he does come in lower than you'd like, consider it a lesson about the importance of agreeing to a price in advance, and finish up you work quickly but professionally.
okcomputer
Member
If you didn't agree on a price in advance, just give him the book with a receipt to cover that cost. Your time and expertise was done out of friendship.
thegman
Veteran
My thoughts too, although depending on your costs, the nature of your friendship, you could give him the book as a wedding gifts, costs of production included.
If you are best friends, then you have to decide what is an appropriate amount of money and time to spend on a wedding gift.
Also I'd say if your friend is reluctant to pay the amount you want, then is it because he does not value your time and effort, or is it because he is a little hard up for cash. That would make a big difference in my eyes on what to charge, if anything at all.
Ranchu
Veteran
Nothing more than costs. You can't expect to profit off your friends.
Scrambler
Well-known
Putting a price on your time and skills isn't "profit."
A comment was made above to $50 an hour - sounds about right to me for a skilled job, maybe even low.
If it takes 20 hours to photograph, edit, etc ...
OK, if it takes 40 hours to photograph, edit etc, the "gift" is $2000. That's pretty generous to a friend. The engagement ring might not have cost that.
Cost on costs (rather than adding 10-20% which is usual) and a severe discount on time, IMHO. But I'd still put a price on it. Something like 1/4 to 1/2 professional fee.
Ranchu
Veteran
If you make money out of it, it's profit. It's low class if they're friends. This is why the OP is unsure of what to do. I don't really feel like fooling around with semantics, thanks.