uhoh7
Veteran
Well, I went into folder mania for several days--stayed up late and read everything I could find--certo6 etc.
drooled over all those beautiful 6x9s and the coupled 6x6s and read many threads.
But then I thought: what do I really want? High IQ, coupled RF (if possible), smallest footprint possible, and not a fortune.
Saw something this morning and pulled the trigger:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/250913477266?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
I read it's quirky and and a bit fragile, but capable of making very good images. Maybe one of the best for it's size.
As you can see in the description, it's supposed to be in good working order, but...you know.
First, all I hear is bellows bellows bellows: they suck in stock form.
What's the best way to check the bellows, and what else do I need to go over before I give my feedback?
What are we paying for belllows replacement, and who in Conus is good at it and reasonable?
Any tips to shooting with this camera greatly apreciated
My first 120 ever!
drooled over all those beautiful 6x9s and the coupled 6x6s and read many threads.
But then I thought: what do I really want? High IQ, coupled RF (if possible), smallest footprint possible, and not a fortune.
Saw something this morning and pulled the trigger:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/250913477266?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
I read it's quirky and and a bit fragile, but capable of making very good images. Maybe one of the best for it's size.
As you can see in the description, it's supposed to be in good working order, but...you know.
First, all I hear is bellows bellows bellows: they suck in stock form.
What's the best way to check the bellows, and what else do I need to go over before I give my feedback?
What are we paying for belllows replacement, and who in Conus is good at it and reasonable?
Any tips to shooting with this camera greatly apreciated
My first 120 ever!
kuzano
Veteran
Unless you have documented proof of a bellows replacement, It's about a $100 value.
The GS645 has three significant chronic issues. As a result they were only produced for a little over a year.
1) The bellows was made using a synthetic material that developed pinholes early ... not patchable. The occurred all over the bellows. It's unlikely that any GS645 bellows has survived to this time without some form of pinhole failure, or even catastrophic breakdown.
Solution. I've had three bellows replaced on three GS645s by Frank Marshman at Camera Wiz. When he can find supplies he usually buys a half dozen or so bellows to have inventory on hand. His fix is good and long range. Most of the ones he did for me cost from $140 to $175 bellows and labor. He does a lot of these bellows.
2) The shutter linkage in it's original form is weak and easily failed early. The process for closing the camera was very specific... Uncocked and focus set on infinity if I recall. Doing this wrong usually resulted in failed linkage.
Solution... Again Frank has had a fix on strengthening the GS645 linkage almost from the deployment of the camera.
3) The shutters do not do well in extreme cold. The shutter sticks in extreme cold conditions. I have never experienced this problem, but have communicated with other buyers who have. I have heard that Frank considers this an unresolved fix. Just don't shoot them in extreme cold situations.
Otherwise the camera is fairly robust and is an excellent shooter, with accurate range finder focusing, very accurate over/under metering, fully manual and only battery dependent for the meter. But the meter is an over/under system, whereby you still set both the shutter speed and aperture manually. If you use a hand held meter, you need no battery in the camera. However, the three I have owned have all been great on the metering. IQ for the lens is phenomenal, as are most Fuji EBC coated lenses.
My bottom line on purchasing them... If I buy one, it goes to Frank as soon as I get it. Unless someone proves a new bellows, and preferably by Frank, I will not consider a price over $200 and at that price I would prefer to get one with a bad bellows and ship it right out to Frank. I would expect a new bellows, the shutter linkage fix, check and adjust the rangefinder if needed and a CLA on shutter/lens.
Now, I am confident there may be other people who can fix them. But Frank works on all my Fuji's... even the big rangefinders. He is in Harrisburg WV.
Am I confident that a GS645 can be found with a light tight or repairable original bellows.... Absolutely NOT!!!
It would take perfect storage, very limited use, and most likely opening the camera once and never folding the bellows since....Ever!
The folding mechanism was durable and reliable. So much so, that the GF670 is almost an exact duplicate in folding mechanism, and just slightly larger.
BTW, the GS645 is not as small a folder as most think it is closed. I finally quite buying them when I realized my GA645Zi was only slightly bigger, and not thicker than the folded GS645, even considering the 55-90 Zoom autofocus lens.
Then I've had about 5 of the GA645Zi's.(And Frank has repaired a couple of those as well, but they were FAR better camera's with better features than the GS645
Is that what you wanted to know. $150 to $200 MAX without proof of the new bellows and a light tight test. That leaves room to still spend some money on the shutter linkage and a CLA.
A better camera in the same era would be a nice condition GS645S.. NOt A FOLDER, but a slightly wider 60mm lens and still serviceable.
OOPS. I just read your post and find that you already bought. Good Luck.
The GS645 has three significant chronic issues. As a result they were only produced for a little over a year.
1) The bellows was made using a synthetic material that developed pinholes early ... not patchable. The occurred all over the bellows. It's unlikely that any GS645 bellows has survived to this time without some form of pinhole failure, or even catastrophic breakdown.
Solution. I've had three bellows replaced on three GS645s by Frank Marshman at Camera Wiz. When he can find supplies he usually buys a half dozen or so bellows to have inventory on hand. His fix is good and long range. Most of the ones he did for me cost from $140 to $175 bellows and labor. He does a lot of these bellows.
2) The shutter linkage in it's original form is weak and easily failed early. The process for closing the camera was very specific... Uncocked and focus set on infinity if I recall. Doing this wrong usually resulted in failed linkage.
Solution... Again Frank has had a fix on strengthening the GS645 linkage almost from the deployment of the camera.
3) The shutters do not do well in extreme cold. The shutter sticks in extreme cold conditions. I have never experienced this problem, but have communicated with other buyers who have. I have heard that Frank considers this an unresolved fix. Just don't shoot them in extreme cold situations.
Otherwise the camera is fairly robust and is an excellent shooter, with accurate range finder focusing, very accurate over/under metering, fully manual and only battery dependent for the meter. But the meter is an over/under system, whereby you still set both the shutter speed and aperture manually. If you use a hand held meter, you need no battery in the camera. However, the three I have owned have all been great on the metering. IQ for the lens is phenomenal, as are most Fuji EBC coated lenses.
My bottom line on purchasing them... If I buy one, it goes to Frank as soon as I get it. Unless someone proves a new bellows, and preferably by Frank, I will not consider a price over $200 and at that price I would prefer to get one with a bad bellows and ship it right out to Frank. I would expect a new bellows, the shutter linkage fix, check and adjust the rangefinder if needed and a CLA on shutter/lens.
Now, I am confident there may be other people who can fix them. But Frank works on all my Fuji's... even the big rangefinders. He is in Harrisburg WV.
Am I confident that a GS645 can be found with a light tight or repairable original bellows.... Absolutely NOT!!!
It would take perfect storage, very limited use, and most likely opening the camera once and never folding the bellows since....Ever!
The folding mechanism was durable and reliable. So much so, that the GF670 is almost an exact duplicate in folding mechanism, and just slightly larger.
BTW, the GS645 is not as small a folder as most think it is closed. I finally quite buying them when I realized my GA645Zi was only slightly bigger, and not thicker than the folded GS645, even considering the 55-90 Zoom autofocus lens.
Then I've had about 5 of the GA645Zi's.(And Frank has repaired a couple of those as well, but they were FAR better camera's with better features than the GS645
Is that what you wanted to know. $150 to $200 MAX without proof of the new bellows and a light tight test. That leaves room to still spend some money on the shutter linkage and a CLA.
A better camera in the same era would be a nice condition GS645S.. NOt A FOLDER, but a slightly wider 60mm lens and still serviceable.
OOPS. I just read your post and find that you already bought. Good Luck.
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uhoh7
Veteran
Great reply, Ty very much kuzano
He claims bellows are good, so if I can tell right away, I,ll ask him to send me back a bit for cla/bellows.
How to really check?
He claims bellows are good, so if I can tell right away, I,ll ask him to send me back a bit for cla/bellows.
How to really check?
Bobfrance
Over Exposed
Open the back, sit in a darkened room, shine a torch inside and look for pinholes of light shining through.
I've had a GS645 for years and love it. The bellows on mine have always looked a little worn but, despite their reputation, it has never let me down. I used to have a GA645zi, but sold it and kept the GS because I didn't like the slow autofocus.
If you look closely you can see it hanging around the neck of my avatar.
Here's another self portrait I took with it.
(The vignetting was added and not form the lens).
Untitled by Bobfrance, on Flickr
I've had a GS645 for years and love it. The bellows on mine have always looked a little worn but, despite their reputation, it has never let me down. I used to have a GA645zi, but sold it and kept the GS because I didn't like the slow autofocus.
If you look closely you can see it hanging around the neck of my avatar.
Here's another self portrait I took with it.
(The vignetting was added and not form the lens).
Untitled by Bobfrance, on Flickr
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
The listing claims "bellow is perfect" so once you get it, do the flashlight test immediately and send it back to the seller if it fails. Looking at that second photo in the listing, I don't think those corners are still good. The material looks a lot like the original stuff, and that's not a good thing. I'm looking at having the bellows replaced on mine; was hoping to do it myself but I keep hearing good things about Frank and the price is reasonable. It would take me hours, with no guarantee of success. I haven't had an issue with the shutter linkage so far. You do have do remember to cock + set to infinity + press two tabs. A Rollei 35, Kodak Retina and Voigtländer Vito all rolled into one...
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
Sorry for no line breaks above, the forum software is giving me trouble today
Bobfrance
Over Exposed
Just checked the ad.
It looks fine to me. Far better than mine does and it's still light tight.
As far as I can see the black coating on the original bellows appears to be just a thin layer more for cosmetic purposes than anything else.
It looks fine to me. Far better than mine does and it's still light tight.
As far as I can see the black coating on the original bellows appears to be just a thin layer more for cosmetic purposes than anything else.
dnk512
Well-known
+1 for what kuzano said.
kuzano
Veteran
Just what Bobfrance said.
Just what Bobfrance said.
Plus One for what Bobfrance said. Dark room, back open, flashlight.
Look outside the bellows, while shining the flash light around the interior of the camera, then reverse and watch through the back opening while shining the light very close and around the exterior of the bellows.
I really liked the mechanics and image quality of the camera, once the bugs were fixed. Frank charges almost nothing for the linkage fix when doing the bellows. It's kind of like he doesn't want to have worked on the camera without the linkage improvement.
Turnaround was always fast, except for one time when he had to source a new bellows provider. Probably best to telephone him and see if he has a bellows in stock before sending. He can only be reached easily by telephone. He does not have much of a web presence, but his contact info can be googled on his name:
Frank Marshman
or his enterprise
CameraWiz
He has over 40 years in his biz and does a lot of fuji cameras.
Just what Bobfrance said.
Plus One for what Bobfrance said. Dark room, back open, flashlight.
Look outside the bellows, while shining the flash light around the interior of the camera, then reverse and watch through the back opening while shining the light very close and around the exterior of the bellows.
I really liked the mechanics and image quality of the camera, once the bugs were fixed. Frank charges almost nothing for the linkage fix when doing the bellows. It's kind of like he doesn't want to have worked on the camera without the linkage improvement.
Turnaround was always fast, except for one time when he had to source a new bellows provider. Probably best to telephone him and see if he has a bellows in stock before sending. He can only be reached easily by telephone. He does not have much of a web presence, but his contact info can be googled on his name:
Frank Marshman
or his enterprise
CameraWiz
He has over 40 years in his biz and does a lot of fuji cameras.
uhoh7
Veteran
Good info from everyone, thank you.
OK, confession
THough I grew up around a darkroom, I have not shot film in a very very long time, and I've never shot 120.
WHat's the low down on workflow options?
What films and where should I get them?
Processing....where? I do have the space for a darkroom......
How hard to develop myself and maybe scan with an epson v700? I think a coolscan is out of my league, but I might afford 500-1000 for a worthwhile solution in that area.
all input apreciated
OK, confession
THough I grew up around a darkroom, I have not shot film in a very very long time
, and I've never shot 120.WHat's the low down on workflow options?
What films and where should I get them?
Processing....where? I do have the space for a darkroom......
How hard to develop myself and maybe scan with an epson v700? I think a coolscan is out of my league, but I might afford 500-1000 for a worthwhile solution in that area.
all input apreciated
fuji645
Established
Congratulations on your purchase. It's not all that fragile but use a delicate touch when closing the folder. It's critical that the shutter be cocked and focused at infinity to avoid any damage to the camera. I'm the original owner of mine which developed some light leaks about 2 years ago. While looking at Ebay during another search, I came across a supplier/manufacturer in Hong Kong who sold bellows for various cameras including the Fuji. I decided to take a chance and purchase one. I'd called Frank Marshman and at the time, he had no bellows to work with. When the item came in the mail, I inspected it and it looked OK and was made from nylon as opposed to the original material. I shipped my new bellows and the Fuji to a shop I've been dealing with for many years, Essex Camera (aka camerrepair.com) in New Jersey. They fixed the linkeage on the Fuji about 10 years ago and have done CLA's on my Leica M3 and have done a great job in servicing my other equipment. They installed the new bellows and it was returned in like new condition. The total repair, including the cost of the bellows ($65) was about $200. Higher than Marshman, but worth it. Hopefully your new purchase won't need a bellows, but if it does, their are resources out there.
Regarding film, processing and scanning, I've used Freestyle Photo for most of my supplies and I use a lot of Tmax and Arista Ultra (repackaged Foma films). I develop Tmax in HC 110 dil b and the Foma films in either Rodinal 1:50 or Xtol 1:1. I scan using my Microtek Scanmaker i900 which has given me great results over the years. I've recently posted some photos taken with the Fuji and scanned with the Microtek on the RFF Gallery. Good luck with your new Fuji!
Regarding film, processing and scanning, I've used Freestyle Photo for most of my supplies and I use a lot of Tmax and Arista Ultra (repackaged Foma films). I develop Tmax in HC 110 dil b and the Foma films in either Rodinal 1:50 or Xtol 1:1. I scan using my Microtek Scanmaker i900 which has given me great results over the years. I've recently posted some photos taken with the Fuji and scanned with the Microtek on the RFF Gallery. Good luck with your new Fuji!
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
Where are you located? In the USA, you can still get 120 color film developed through Walmart. It takes around two weeks but the quality is very good (Walmart doesn't do anything except send it to the nearest Fuji lab) and the price is unbeatable. Negatives only for 84 cents, with prints the price goes to $1.81, and it doesn't seem to matter how many exposures are on the roll! (The GS645 gives you 15 per roll.)
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
(new post because of no line breaks issue) As long as I can get this deal, I'm happy to shoot Kodak Ektar film in my 120 cameras and pass it to Walmart for developing, instead of developing my own B&W. // That said, developing B&W is not difficult and you don't even need a darkroom, just a tank + reel and a changing bag. We have plenty of beginner-type threads in the darkroom sub-forum.
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
Scanner: I paid $75 for an Epson 4490 through Craigslist. It does a good job but Epson's film holders are terrible. betterscanning.com sells better holders but that adds another $80.
kuzano
Veteran
Error on advice... Likely my error
Error on advice... Likely my error
I notice a post other than mine about steps before closing the GS645 camera.
I said UNcocked and focused on infinity.
The other post said COCKED and focus on infinity.
I think my advice may have been wrong, but the manual is quite clear on this. This is the problem that negatively affects the original weak linkage.
Please get a manual (I've seen them free online) and check this closely.
One other thing about horizontal transport MF camera's. Be sure to have the film tight across the film plane opening. This is particularly true on 6X9, but can pile film up on the takeup spool even on a 645, jamming the roll halfway through. Hold tension on the film advance as closing the door. The later Fuji manuals addressed this potential problem... snug on the film.
Keeping the film tight on closing the door also reduces perception of film spacing problems. Once I learned about this trick, I never had a spacing problem in a Fuji MF camera. I also found a lot of folders no longer exhibit frame spacing problems when the film is loaded tight (snug) as you close the door.
Error on advice... Likely my error
I notice a post other than mine about steps before closing the GS645 camera.
I said UNcocked and focused on infinity.
The other post said COCKED and focus on infinity.
I think my advice may have been wrong, but the manual is quite clear on this. This is the problem that negatively affects the original weak linkage.
Please get a manual (I've seen them free online) and check this closely.
One other thing about horizontal transport MF camera's. Be sure to have the film tight across the film plane opening. This is particularly true on 6X9, but can pile film up on the takeup spool even on a 645, jamming the roll halfway through. Hold tension on the film advance as closing the door. The later Fuji manuals addressed this potential problem... snug on the film.
Keeping the film tight on closing the door also reduces perception of film spacing problems. Once I learned about this trick, I never had a spacing problem in a Fuji MF camera. I also found a lot of folders no longer exhibit frame spacing problems when the film is loaded tight (snug) as you close the door.
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batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
It must be cocked. Easy to tell since the T button will pop up and show red - no red, no fold.
uhoh7
Veteran
Luckily the camera comes with the manual
Now I'm busily studying up on d76 and the v700
What B&W 120 film do you guys like?
Now I'm busily studying up on d76 and the v700
What B&W 120 film do you guys like?
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kuzano
Veteran
Ah yes.....
Ah yes.....
Now I do remember that... no red no fold. Thank you.
Once I changed over to the Zi, I promptly forgot some of the info on the GS645. I also tended to prefer the non folding GS645S with the 60mm, and would have actually purchased the GS645W if it had not been zone focus. Now that was a small camera for 6X45.
The smallest 645 I own is a Zenobia R... uncoupled rangefinder folder. Modeled quite exactingly after the Zeiss 6X4.5 folder 516 as I recall.
Enjoy your GS645.
Ah yes.....
Now I do remember that... no red no fold. Thank you.
Once I changed over to the Zi, I promptly forgot some of the info on the GS645. I also tended to prefer the non folding GS645S with the 60mm, and would have actually purchased the GS645W if it had not been zone focus. Now that was a small camera for 6X45.
The smallest 645 I own is a Zenobia R... uncoupled rangefinder folder. Modeled quite exactingly after the Zeiss 6X4.5 folder 516 as I recall.
Enjoy your GS645.
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
Well of course "red" meaning "go" is where Fuji got it wrong IMO. As mentioned above, it helps that I use / have used Rolleis, Retinas and Vitos.
uhoh7
Veteran
it arrived
took it in the bathroom right away and shined a powerfull LED bike headlight in to the bellows. Not a dot! (looking from the outside) I don't think it has any light leaks
The funny thing is the bellows material is different on the inside--I'll have to show some shots. Maybe this is the way they all were.
Test roll loaded and half used. My first 645
I just picked tmax 100RF seem fine and meter works, so maybe I did not over pay so much.
Only real flaw i can see is when the back is closed there is a fingernail's play where the back meets the body next to the vertical release, you can push the back in a tiny bit there.
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